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How did the role of "pastor's wife" replace ordination for women in church history? Is the news that there was women's ordination in church history hitting you unexpectedly right now? It's cool, we get it; take a moment and come back when you're ready.

Historian and actual pastor's wife Beth Allison Barr returns for a potentially revelatory conversation about her latest book, Becoming the Pastor's Wife: How Marriage Replaced Ordination as a Woman's Path to Ministry. Drawing from extensive research, including archival discoveries and reading 150 pastor's wife books/manuals (yes, that's a real genre), Beth uncovers how the glorification of this role coincided with efforts to restrict women's ordination.

This interview weaves eye-opening historical findings with deeply personal experiences. Beth shares stories of pastors' wives—herself included—being treated as church property, essentially an extension of her husband and his ministry rather than a full person. These aren't isolated incidents; they are systematic experiences faced by countless pastors' wives who are expected to provide unpaid ministerial labor while supporting their husband's careers.

Perhaps most striking is the historical evidence that women served in virtually every ministry role men did for the first thousand years of Christianity—including as deacons, bishops, and preachers. The rise of complementarian theology—spoiler warning if you're not a regular listener of this podcast—is a modern development that deliberately ignores this rich history.

While Beth doesn't shy away from the harm these practices have caused, she leaves us with hope borrowed from Doctor Who's beloved Van Gogh episode: while we can't undo past damage, we can "add to the good pile" by recognizing the truth, stopping harmful practices, and building a better future where women's gifts are fully welcomed in ministry. This is a conversation that will challenge your understanding of church history and inspire you to imagine new possibilities for what the church could be.

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Matthew Vines returns to discuss how the revised edition of his book addresses critiques from prominent theologians, the distinction between affirming theology and queer theology, and the possibility of affirming, orthodox Christianity.

Matthew unpacks the scholarly consensus that modern sexual orientation concepts simply didn't exist in biblical times—a fact many prominent theologians like NT Wright dismiss without substantial engagement. This historical disconnect creates profound implications for how we interpret biblical passages addressing same-sex relationships.

The discussion takes an interesting turn when Matthew articulates a strong critique of queer theology, distinguishing it from his own affirming theological stance. He argues that queer theory's categorical opposition to all normative structures actually harms LGBTQ+ acceptance by creating an antagonistic "us versus them" narrative rather than one of shared values and inclusion.

We also explore Christian sexual ethics more broadly, with Matthew making the compelling case that monogamy and covenant faithfulness remain valuable principles with profound theological significance. He explains how Christianity's sexual ethic was actually liberating in the ancient world, especially for women and enslaved people who had previously been treated as property without sexual agency.

The conversation concludes with Matthew sharing the mission of The Reformation Project—his organization dedicated to equipping Christians to advocate for LGBTQ+ inclusion while maintaining orthodox Christian beliefs. By modeling how affirmation and biblical commitment can coexist, they're challenging the false narrative that accepting LGBTQ+ people necessarily leads to theological liberalism.

Topics covered in this episode include:

• How ancient and modern understandings of sexuality are fundamentally different, with sexual orientation being a modern concept
• The two main schools of thought in sexuality studies that emerged in the 1970s: social constructionism (Foucault) and essentialism (Boswell)
• NT Wright and Preston Sprinkle's claims about ancient sexuality
• Matthew's response to criticisms of his interpretation of Matthew 7 regarding "good and bad fruit"
• The role of Christian sexual ethics in liberating vulnerable populations by restricting sexual activity to marriage
• How queer theology differs from affirming theology in its rejection of all norms as inherently oppressive

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The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.

If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal.

Other important info:

• Rate & review us on Apple & Spotify
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• Email us at pastorandphilosopher@gmail.com

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Pope Francis, a man who inspired even many Protestants and non-Christians with his refreshingly prophetic voice, has died. The process to select his successor is ongoing as we release this. To help us understand what's happening, as well as its historical significance, we're talking with our friend and returning guest Shaun Blanchard, a Catholic theologian and theological historian. He helps us understand the significance of Francis's papacy and what might come next.

As the first Latin American pope, first Jesuit pope, and first non-European pope since the 8th century, Francis broke numerous precedents while embodying what Shaun calls "the first truly post-Vatican II pope." While his predecessors were formed before Vatican II, Francis's entire priestly ministry took place afterward, fundamentally shaping his perspective on church reform.

We explore how Francis's pastoral approach differed from Benedict XVI's more theological orientation and how his willingness to "make a mess" by reopening debates on issues like divorce, remarriage, and same-sex blessings represented a sea change in ecclesiastical culture. Francis challenged assumptions across the political and theological spectrum, championing environmental protection and migrant rights while maintaining core Catholic teachings.

The conversation turns to the ongoing conclave, where approximately 80% of voting cardinals were appointed by Francis himself. Shaun offers insights into potential candidates including Pietro Parolin, Pierbattista Pizzaballa, and several Asian cardinals, discussing how geopolitical realities might influence the selection process. We also discuss the film "Conclave" and its portrayal of Vatican politics, including how realistic or sensational it was (spoiler warning!).

Whether you're Catholic, Protestant, or simply curious about global religious leadership, this conversation illuminates a crucial moment of transition for the world's largest Christian denomination and invites reflection on what spiritual leadership means in our complex global environment.

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The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.

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• Email us at pastorandphilosopher@gmail.com

Cheers!