In this deeply moving and powerful conversation, Dr. Abby Spencer, Professor of Medicine, Vice Chair for Education, and Director of the Academy of Educators at Washington University, joins Dr. Amna Shabbir to unpack the high cost of perfectionism, the reality of burnout in medicine, and what it means to lead with heart.

Together, they explore:

✅Compassionate leadership in medicine
✅ The double standards women in leadership face
✅A special moment in Dr. Shabbir’s life when she was a medical trainee, and how Dr. Spencer helped avert her trauma.
✅Creating systems where vulnerability is safe
✅ Recognizing and recovering from burnout
✅The emotional toll of moral injury in healthcare

👤 About the Guest:
Abby Spencer, MD, MS, FACP, is a nationally recognized leader in internal medicine and medical education. She serves as Professor of Medicine, Vice Chair for Education in the Department of Medicine, and Director of the Academy of Educators at Washington University School of Medicine. Known for her fierce advocacy for trainees, women in medicine, and values-driven leadership, Dr. Spencer has mentored hundreds of physicians throughout her career, including Dr. Shabbir.

🔗Connect with Dr. Spencer:
X: https://x.com/abbyWUim

🎙About the Host:
Dr. Amna Shabbir is a Dual Board-certified Physician, Master Certified Coach, Professional Speaker, Corporate Wellness Strategist, Mental Health Advocate, and Super Mom. She empowers high achievers to redefine success and create sustainable well-being via coaching, speaking, and virtual programs. Dr. Shabbir is the Founder of Amna Shabbir Wellness Coaching and the Early Career Physicians Institute®, where she empowers high achievers to redefine success and create sustainable well-being.

This episode is part of her special book-writing project on unmasking perfectionism.

🔗Connect with Dr. Shabbir:
📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dr.amnashabbir/
💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amna-shabbir-md/
🌍 Book Her to Speak: https://www.dramnashabbir.com/Speaking

❌ Disclaimer: This podcast is for educational purposes only and does not constitute medical or therapeutic advice. The views expressed are personal and do not reflect those of any employer or institution.

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“The most important thing you can remember is your humble beginnings.”

In this powerful conversation, Dr. Amna Shabbir speaks with Geoffrey M. Roche, healthcare workforce expert, Forbes Business Council member, and proud advocate for inclusion, as he opens up about the life-changing moment that forced him to redefine success, step away from perfectionism, and lead with greater authenticity and impact.

Together, they explore:

✅Why perfectionism is not a strength in disguise
✅The turning point that helped Geoffrey reclaim his autonomy
✅How great leaders use vulnerability to empower teams
✅The connection between psychological safety and retention in healthcare
✅How to champion and create true belonging at work

👤 About the Guest:
Geoffrey M. Roche, MPA is a nationally recognized healthcare leader and the North America Director of Workforce Development at Siemens Healthineers. With 16+ years in hospital and higher education leadership, he’s a Forbes Business Council member and passionate advocate for inclusive, people-first leadership in healthcare.

🔗Connect with Geoffrey:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/geoffreymroche

🎙About the Host:
Dr. Amna Shabbir is a Dual Board-certified Physician, Master Certified Coach, Professional Speaker, Mental Health Advocate, and Super Mom. She is the Founder of Amna Shabbir Wellness Coaching and the Early Career Physicians Institute®, where she empowers high achievers to redefine success and create sustainable well-being.

This episode is part of her special book-writing project on unmasking perfectionism.

🔗Connect with Dr. Shabbir:
📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dr.amnashabbir/
💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amna-shabbir-md/
🌍 Book Her to Speak: https://www.dramnashabbir.com/Speaking

❌ Disclaimer: This podcast is for educational purposes only and does not constitute medical or therapeutic advice. The views expressed are personal and do not reflect those of any employer or institution.

❤️ Enjoyed This Episode?
Don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast.
Share it with a colleague, peer, or friend who needs this message.

What happens when the profession you love ends up taking everything from you?

In this deeply moving episode, Dr. Amna Shabbir sits down with Betsy Gall, author of The Illusion of the Perfect Profession, to talk about physician suicide, the hidden cost of perfectionism, and the very real pain that’s often buried beneath a white coat.

Following the tragic death by suicide of her husband, Dr. Matthew Gall—a beloved oncologist, husband, and father—Betsy transformed her grief into advocacy. Her book, grounded in raw journal entries and letters to God, is a personal and powerful testament to the urgent need for change in how we support those who care for us.

Together, they explore:

✔️ Why Betsy believes being a doctor cost Matt his life
✔️ The identity loss and shame that stop physicians from asking for help
✔️ The barriers physicians face in accessing mental health care
✔️ How to humanize our healthcare system from the inside out

📌 Referenced in this episode:
🔗 The Illusion of the Perfect Profession by Betsy Gall: https://a.co/d/btSG8qa
🔗 Dr. Lorna Breen Heroes’ Foundation: https://drlornabreen.org

👤 About the Guest:

Betsy Gall is an author, speaker, real estate investor, and mother of three. After losing her husband, Dr. Matthew Gall, to suicide in 2019, she became a fierce advocate for physician mental health and well-being. Her memoir, The Illusion of the Perfect Profession, is a candid and healing account of grief, faith, and the broken systems that need urgent reform. Today, she partners with organizations like the Dr. Lorna Breen Heroes' Foundation to share her family's story and fight for lasting change in healthcare.
🔗 Connect with Betsy:

📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/betsygall1/

💙 About the Dr. Lorna Breen Heroes' Foundation:

The Dr. Lorna Breen Heroes’ Foundation is a nonprofit dedicated to protecting the well-being of healthcare professionals and breaking the stigma surrounding mental health. It was founded in honor of Dr. Lorna Breen, an emergency physician who died by suicide during the COVID-19 pandemic after facing unrelenting professional pressure.

Impact Highlights:

✅ Passed the bipartisan Dr. Lorna Breen Health Care Provider Protection Act
✅ Advocates for removing mental health questions from licensing/credentialing
✅ Provides grants and training to build resilient workplace cultures in healthcare

🔗 Support their work: https://drlornabreen.org/donate

🎙 About the Host:

Dr. Amna Shabbir, MD, NBC-HWC, CPC is a dual board-certified Internal Medicine and Geriatrics physician, Master Certified Life Coach, and the Founder of Amna Shabbir Wellness Coaching and the Early Career Physicians Institute®. A passionate speaker, writer, and podcast host,

Dr. Shabbir empowers high achievers to create sustainable well-being.

She is a proud Ambassador of the Dr. Lorna Breen Heroes’ Foundation and a national voice in the movement for clinician mental health.

🔗 Connect with Dr. Amna Shabbir:

📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dr.amnashabbir
💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amna-shabbir-md
▶️ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@amnashabbirmd
🌍 Book Dr. Shabbir to Speak: https://www.dramnashabbir.com/speaking

❗ Important Notes:

⚠️ Trigger Warning: This episode includes discussions of suicide, depression, and grief. Please take care while listening. If you or someone you know is struggling, call or text 988 for free, confidential support.

❌ Disclaimer: This podcast is for educational purposes only. It does not constitute medical or mental health advice and reflects the views of the speakers, not any employer or institution.

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Please rate and review the show, and share it with someone who needs to hear this conversation.