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The Civic Podcast: Beyond the Echo Chambers

The Civic Podcast: Beyond the Echo Chambers

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 In a world full of uncertainty and division, people want answers to uncomfortable questions. We are law professor Markus Wagner and lawyer and software developer David Turner, the hosts of the The Civic Podcast: Beyond the Echo Chambers. We give challenging ideas a fair hearing and know that understanding doesn't require consensus. Join us as we navigate the complexities of politics and society and explore the stories shaping our world.The Civic Podcast Ciencia Política Política y Gobierno
Episodios
  • Australian Elections Redux, Code v Counsel: AI and the Law, the Jumbo in the Room

    Australian Elections Redux, Code v Counsel: AI and the Law, the Jumbo in the Room
    May 22 2025
    Join hosts Markus Wagner and David Turner on The Civic Podcast as they discuss the aftermath of the Australian elections (definitely not boring!) and dive into the future of law in an AI-driven world. In the post-election roundup in Australia they cover the collapse of the Liberal–National coalition, Labor’s overwhelming majority, and the surprising demotion of Labor front benchers Mark Dreyfus and Ed Husic. Was this Richard Marles' doing or is Anthony Albanese showing his Machiavellian side? And does it damage the Labor brand? Markus and David offer fresh insight into what these shifts mean for the future of Australian politics—and why anyone abroad should be paying attention.They then dive deep into the uneasy intersection of AI and law. As trust in human lawyers wanes and AI-generated legal advice gains traction, are we witnessing a turning point—or a tech-fueled mirage? Markus and David explore whether generative AI is truly reshaping the path to justice, what it means for the legal profession and legal education, and whether we’re heading toward a two-tiered legal system. The episode closes with a look at what might never become Air Force One, but maybe the new Trump aircraft. A wide-ranging, provocative conversation you won’t want to miss.Links: Daron Acemoglu, Issue 129, 25 June 2024, Goldman Sachs Global Investment Research. Emily Berman, A Government of Laws and Not of Machines, (2018) 98(5) Boston University Law Review 1277. Gillespie, N., Lockey, S., Ward, T., Macdade, A., & Hassed, G. (2025). Trust, attitudes and use of artificial intelligence: A global study 2025. The University of Melbourne and KPMG. Lee et al, The Impact of Generative AI on Critical Thinking, 2025. Arvind Narayanan and Sayash Kapoor, AI as Normal Technology, Knight First Amendment Institute, 15 April 2025. Opinion Lex, LLM vs LLB: the case for junior lawyers is undermined by AI, FT, 11 May 2025. Eike Schneiders, Joshua Krook and Tina Seabrooke, People trust legal advice generated by ChatGPT more than a lawyer – new study, The Conversation, 28 April 2025. Eike Schneiders, Tina Seabrooke, Joshua Krook, Richard Hyde, Natalie Leesakul, Jeremie Clos, and Joel E Fischer. 2025. Objection Overruled! Lay People can Distinguish Large Language Models from Lawyers, but still Favour Advice from an LLM. 2025 CHI Conference on Human Factors in Computing Systems (CHI '25). Stockdale, M., & Mitchell, R. (2019). Legal advice privilege and artificial legal intelligence: Can robots give privileged legal advice? The International Journal of Evidence & Proof, 23(4), 422. Ari Ezra Waldman, ‘Power, Process, and Automated Decision-Making’ (2019) 88(2) Fordham Law Review 613. Socials: ✅https://www.youtube.com/@TheCivicPodcast1✅https://x.com/TheCivicPodcast✅https://www.instagram.com/thecivicpodcast✅https://bsky.app/profile/thecivicpodcast.bsky.social✅https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-civic-podcastHosts:⁠⁠Markus Wagner⁠⁠⁠ is Professor of Law at the⁠ ⁠⁠University of Wollongong⁠⁠⁠, Australia and has advised the private sector, governments and international organizations. An award-winning instructor, his academic work and consulting are focused on the intersections of international trade law and governance, and international peace and security, as well as US and Australian constitutional law. Professor Wagner is a sought after⁠ commentator on⁠ ⁠TV, radio and other news outlets⁠⁠⁠. David Turner is a lawyer and software developer from Sydney, Australia. As the principal lawyer of⁠ ⁠⁠Empirical Legal⁠⁠⁠, David advises Australian startups, scale-ups and small businesses on corporate advisory and technology challenges. As a co-founder of⁠ ⁠⁠Lext⁠⁠⁠, David works to make the law easier to access and easier to practise through software. Lext develops its own software-as-a-service products, and also works with government agencies, law firms and not-for-profit organisations to develop technological solutions to law and justice problems.
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    40 m
  • Trade-Off(s): Making Sense of the Trump Tariffs w/ Stephen Vaughn

    Trade-Off(s): Making Sense of the Trump Tariffs w/ Stephen Vaughn
    May 16 2025
    Ever wondered how the Trump tariffs could possibly make sense? In this episode of The Civic Podcast, host Markus Wagner sits down with Stephen Vaughn, former General Counsel for the U.S. Trade Representative, for a spirited discussion on the Trump administration’s trade policy. They explore and discuss the rationale behind Trump’s tariff agenda, its impact on businesses, and the future of global trade governance. Vaughn, a partner at King & Spalding, offers an insider's perspective on Trump’s "America First" approach, challenges what is arguably the consensus among policy analysts and advocates for a trade philosophy that prioritizes American workers and national independence. Tune in to a timely conversation about power, politics, and the real-world trade-offs in a rapidly changing world in which "tariff threats work".Links: Giovanna Coi, US popularity collapses worldwide in wake of Trump’s return, Politico, 12 May 2025 Rachel F. Fefer, Section 232 of the Trade Expansion Act, Congressional Research Service, 1 April 2022Gallup, Most Americans Skeptical About Benefits of Tariffs, 28 April 2025Tobias Gehrke, Cards on the table: Why the EU should negotiate Trump’s tariffs in three phases, European Council of Foreign Relations, 28 April 2025Nicolas Lamp, What President Trump’s “Reciprocal” Tariffs Mean for International (Trade) Law, EJIL:Talk!, 30 April 2025Donald MacKay, More US section 232 investigations underway – WTF is going on?, 1 May 2025Nira Data, Democracy Perception Index (DPI) 2025Mona Paulsen, The Past, Present, and Potential of Economic Security, forthcoming in Yale Journal of International Law, vol. 50, pp. ___ (2025)Li Yuan, There Are Two Chinas, and America Must Understand Both, New York Times, 13 May 2025Socials: ✅https://www.youtube.com/@TheCivicPodcast1✅https://x.com/TheCivicPodcast✅https://www.instagram.com/thecivicpodcast✅https://bsky.app/profile/thecivicpodcast.bsky.social✅https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-civic-podcastStephen Vaughn is a partner at the International Trade Team of King & Spalding. Prior to his current position, Stephen completed more than two years as the General Counsel's office of the Office of the United States Trade Representative (USTR). In that position, he managed a team of government attorneys representing U.S. interests in both trade negotiations and trade litigation. While at USTR, Stephen was directly involved in numerous significant issues, including the USMCA, actions undertaken by the U.S. against China pursuant to Section 301 of the Trade Act of 1974, and efforts to revise the Korea/U.S. Free Trade Agreement (KORUS). On the litigation side, he supervised U.S. litigation efforts before the World Trade Organization.Markus Wagner⁠⁠ is Professor of Law at the⁠ ⁠University of Wollongong⁠, Australia and has advised the private sector, governments and international organizations. An award-winning instructor, his academic work and consulting are focused on the intersections of international trade law and governance, and international peace and security, as well as US and Australian constitutional law. Professor Wagner is a sought after commentator on⁠ ⁠TV, radio and other news outlets⁠⁠.
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    1 h y 8 m
  • Electile Dysfunction: The 2025 Australian Elections

    Electile Dysfunction: The 2025 Australian Elections
    May 8 2025
    The outcome of Australia’s 2025 federal election shocked just about everyone. Co-hosts Markus Wagner and David Turner unpack the results: the landslide win for Labor resulting in a historic second term for Prime Minister Anthony Albanese; how the Coalition is facing an identity crisis; the Greens’ growing pains; and the Teals’ staying power; and the curious case of the “Trumpets for Patriots”. Markus and David break down the numbers, the narratives, and the big lessons for all sides. Boring politics might be back—but that seems what the electorate wanted. Tune in to The Civic Podcast to find out.Links: ABC News, Ex-PMs farewell election analyst Antony Green after his final ABC Australia Votes broadcast, Australian Electoral Commission, Tally RoomAnnabel Crabb, Peter Dutton's platform infuriated women — and it likely lost him the election, ABC News, 4 May 2025Diego Garzia, Frederico Ferreira da Silva, Simon Maye, Affective Polarization in Comparative and Longitudinal Perspective, Public Opinion Quarterly, Volume 87, Issue 1, Spring 2023, 219–231 Olivia Ireland, Clay Lucas and Bridie Smith, Bandt clings to Melbourne seat as members clash on party direction, 4 May 2025Joseph Olbrycht-Palmer, Jumbled messages and an un-electable leader drove Labor’s win, pollster claims, News.com, 4 May 2025Laura Silver, Most across 19 countries see strong partisan conflicts in their society, especially in South Korea and the U.S., Pew Research, 16 November 2022Chris Wallace, Labor wins with a superior campaign and weak opposition – now it’s time to make the second term really matter, The Conversation, 3 May 2025, Tongue in Cheek, Donald Trump Actually Quite Good At Uniting A Nation When It’s Not His Own, Betoota Advocate Recommendations: ⁠Ross Douthat, Interesting TimesJerome Doraisamy, Baking bad: Here, intellectual property lawyers weigh in on the extraordinary dispute between two of Australia’s most famous chefs, Lawyers Weekly, 5 May 2025Our Socials: ✅https://www.youtube.com/@TheCivicPodcast1✅https://x.com/TheCivicPodcast✅https://www.instagram.com/thecivicpodcast✅https://bsky.app/profile/thecivicpodcast.bsky.social✅https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-civic-podcastHosts:⁠Markus Wagner⁠⁠ is Professor of Law at the⁠ ⁠University of Wollongong⁠⁠, Australia and has advised the private sector, governments and international organizations. An award-winning instructor, his academic work and consulting are focused on the intersections of international trade law and governance, and international peace and security, as well as US and Australian constitutional law. Professor Wagner is a sought after commentator on⁠ ⁠TV, radio and other news outlets⁠⁠. David Turner is a lawyer and software developer from Sydney, Australia. As the principal lawyer of⁠ ⁠Empirical Legal⁠⁠, David advises Australian startups, scale-ups and small businesses on corporate advisory and technology challenges. As a co-founder of⁠ ⁠Lext⁠⁠, David works to make the law easier to access and easier to practise through software. Lext develops its own software-as-a-service products, and also works with government agencies, law firms and not-for-profit organisations to develop technological solutions to law and justice problems.
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    46 m
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