This week we're tackling the wonderfully niche concept of anti-rock. Or more specifically, we're trying to work out what the hell it actually is, why Google doesn't seem to know either, and how it connects to everything from Frank Zappa taking the piss out of The Beatles to bands who are so talented they deliberately make themselves sound rubbish.

Chris has dragged poor Mark and our resident punk professor Ferro down a rabbit hole that starts with French composers banging bits of concrete in the 1940s and somehow ends up at US Maple, a band that sounds like they're actively trying to annoy you. Along the way we encounter Captain Beefheart's deliberately mental Trout Mask Replica, The Residents being mysterious weirdos in eyeball masks, and Suicide essentially inventing electronic music with what amounts to a homemade fuzz box.

We get properly stuck into the prehistory of experimental music, from Pierre Schaeffer's musique concrète through to the New York art scene of the 1970s. Our main thesis is that anti-rock isn't just noise for the sake of it - it's what happens when genuinely skilled musicians decide to systematically tear apart rock conventions from the inside. Think of it as punk's more cerebral, art school cousin who's read too much Derrida.

This is part one of three. Next week we'll tackle the No Wave explosion in late 70s New York, and part three will finally explain why US Maple exist and why anyone would voluntarily listen to them. We also touch on Glenn Branca's guitar symphonies, Pere Ubu's Cleveland weirdness, and try to work out why some of the most influential experimental music came from artists who could absolutely play it straight if they wanted to. Spoiler: they definitely didn't want to.

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This week we're diving into the wonderfully gloomy world of Emma Ruth Rundle. Or more specifically, we're having a bit of a discussion whether she's actually goth or not, what goth even means, and how it may be broader than some think. Musically, Chris thinks most of her catalogue is a bit pants but she has artistic integreity. Mark reckons she's brilliant.

Emma Ruth Rundle has spent her career shape-shifting between projects like some sort of musical chameleon with commitment issues. From her early folk-gaze days with The Nocturnes to her brief stint with post-rock titans Red Sparrows. From the overlooked Marriages project to her increasingly experimental solo work. She's never been one to stay in her lane. The question is: does all this reinvention actually work, or is it just restless artist syndrome?

We get deep into the weeds of her entire discography. Our main focus is 2016's "Marked for Death", which Mark insists is her masterpiece and Chris... well, Chris has opinions. We also tackle the thorny question of what actually constitutes "goth" in 2025. Spoiler: it's probably not what you think. Plus we discuss her genuinely unnerving experimental albums. And try to work out why Sargent House thought it was a good idea to send a recovering alcoholic to record alone in the desert. With unlimited booze.

Episode Highlights:

• 00:00 Introduction and Studio Setup at Variety Bar
• 05:21 The Great Goth Debate Begins
• 18:45 Emma Ruth Rundle's Project History
• 32:48 Electric Guitar One: Ambient Experiments
• 39:00 Some Heavy Ocean: The Proper Debut
• 44:14 On Dark Horses: Chris's Least Favourite
• 52:26 The Thou Collaboration: Overrated or Underrated?
• 59:48 Engine of Hell: Stripped Back and Boring?
• 1:04:06 Electric Guitar Two: Pure Horror Movie Soundtrack
• 1:13:28 Marked for Death: The Desert Sessions
• 1:26:00 Final Verdicts and Wrap-Up

This week we're talking about the Leeds band Vessels. Or more specifically we're talking about their quite abrupt change from identikit post rock band to something a lot more electronic and a lot more enticing.

By their own admission, Vessels had something of a problem: the band had to evolve or die. They were trapped making the same post rock songs as everyone else, using the same delay pedals, creating the same "emotional" buildups that made grown men in plaid shirts cry. So they did something radical: they put down their guitars and picked up synthesisers.

The result was Dilate, an album that lost them some fans but gained them something more valuable - an actual identity. In this episode, we not only get into the weeds of their discography (as we always do), but we also talk about post rock generally, as well as the band's history, their decision to turn to live electronic, how much of a nightmare that actually can be to pull off live, the influence that Berlin clubs had on their new direction, and so much more.

Episode highlights:

00:00 Introduction and Podcast Setup
02:24 Introducing the Band: Vessels
03:57 Exploring Vessels' Evolution
07:26 The Post-Rock Genre and Vessels' Place in It
25:16 Vessels' Early Work and Initial Reception
37:41 Analysing the Last Third of the Album
38:06 Songwriting Evolution and Structural Ambitions
38:48 Drummers and Instrumentation
39:59 Remixes and Bonus Albums
40:29 Glastonbury and the Inflection Point
41:02 Transition to Electronic Music
41:46 Reflecting on the Change of Direction
44:56 The Great Distraction Album
45:19 Challenges of Remote Collaboration
47:39 Vocal Contributions and Collaborations
54:19 Dilate Album Review
01:08:42 Conclusion and Final Thoughts