The twenty-ninth episode of the podcast that you know and love as "We Love Ugly Data!" is out; available in audio form everywhere you get your podcasts from and additionally in video form via YouTube (which we've embedded below). As usual, it’s three topics in (just a touch over) 30 minutes, and the show notes are included just below the embedded video. Alan is back on with Matt this month, discussing the remainder of the latest Vendor Analysis Reports, our latest AI Agent research (focusing on scaling agents to execute,) and what a year's worth of MMI reports can tell us about AI adoption across the market.

In this month’s episode:

Topic 1: Vendor Research Updates

First up this month, Alan and Matt discuss 3 more of the latest Vendor Analysis Reports that were recently published for subscribers. Alan talks about the new reports on Egnyte and SER, while Matt talks through the debut report on Bardeen.

Topic 2: AI Agents Pt 2

We've recently published the (free to download) addendum to our popular AI Agent understander, in the form of "AI Agents Part 2: The Evolution from Single Systems to Complex Process Orchestration" and here Matt tries to outline what this second reports adds to the first and in the process reveals that he still can't say the work "specificity" reliably. To make up for that fail, the pair go on to talk about Matt's explainer blog post "Friendship is Agentic" on the needs that agents have to make them truly useful and Alan's blog post on what his most recent trip to Silicon Valley taught him about the state of Agentic.

Topic 3: AI Adoption Index?

Via what is definitely the first and probably the last mention of the MTV series "The Real World" (which to be honest, Matt had though had died in the 1990s, not realizing that it's still very much a thing) the pair go on to talk about the 12 months combined data collected and analysed for our MMI (Market Momentum Index) reports and what it can tell us about AI adoption across the markets that Deep Analysis looks at. Here, they talk about the dangers of extracting meaning from aggregated data (via the medium of hair length) and what the different corpora of data collected in the last 12 months indicate about the health of the business AI market.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm0_wooqPzc

Related Links for Series 4 Episode 7
Here's those latest updated vendor profiles (or VVs as we still call them internally).
...and here's the link to the whole catalog on those profiles (that you have access to read if you're a subscriber).
Download the new report "AI Agents Part 2: The Evolution from Single Systems to Complex Process Orchestration" in full.
The post "Friendship is Agentic" that Matt wrote to accompany the release of the report.
Alan's post about the state of the industry around Agenti

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The twenty-eighth episode of the podcast that you know and love as "We Love Ugly Data!" is out; available in audio form everywhere you get your podcasts from and additionally in video form via YouTube (which we've embedded below). As usual it’s three topics in (just a touch over) 30 minutes, and the show notes are included just below the embedded video. Dan is back on with Matt this month, discussing a first selection of the latest Vendor Analysis Reports, a sneap peak into the latest IDP research - this time a largescale survey of IDP use - and Dan's selections for the Banned Words List.

In this month’s episode:

Topic 1: Vendor Research Updates

First up this month, Dan and Matt discuss 3 of the latest Vendor Analysis Reports that were recently published for subscribers. Dan talks about the updated report on Infrrd and a new report on Cambrion, while Matt talks through some of the highlights of the latest report on EvoluteIQ.

Topic 2: New IDP Research

Ahead of the publication of (probably) the largest-scale IDP use survey that's been conducted, Dan talks through some of the early findings that you'll be able to read once the survey proper is released next month. This involves discussion about AI adoption, the need for process analysis, and [gasp] the growing amount of paper that's still driving business processes in 2025. And faxes, lots of faxes.

Topic 3: Banned Word List (Pt II)

After Matt and Alan got to have a go back in April, this time it's Dan's turn to choose a word (or phrase) he never want to see or hear every again about technology and in return they nominate a cliché of their own they they like to use, but will give up in return. So this time, let’s wave goodbye to “at the end of the day” and “game changer”.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZHuG4MH4xw

Related Links for Series 4 Episode 6
Here's those latest updated vendor profiles (or VVs as we still call them internally).
...and here's the link to the whole catalog on those profiles (that you have access to read if you're a subscriber).
Last year's Deep Analysis AIIM "Market Momentum Index: AI and Unstructured Data Management" which Matt mentions, which has some other paper related statistics.

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The twenty-seventh episode of the podcast you know and love, "We Love Ugly Data!", is now available. You can find it in audio form on your preferred podcast platform and in video form on YouTube, which we've embedded below. As usual, it’s three topics in (just a touch over) 30 minutes, and the show notes are included just below the embedded video. We're back with Matt and Alan again this month, featuring discussions on planning for agents (with a return of the "5 Questions" graphic), a major dispute between business application vendors (with a mention of a breaking M&A transaction), and the distinction between tactical and strategic advice.

In this month’s episode:

Topic 1: 5 questions for agentic planning

To kick off this month, Matt and Alan discuss last year's infographic "Is your organization ready for Artificial Intelligence?" that Deep Analysis produced in association with AIIM, in light of a blog post that Matt published, where he takes those original 5 questions and asks them again specifically for agentic. There's a big discussion about projects; discovery phases, go-no go decision, subject matter experts, and process analysis (because, of course).

Topic 2: Biz App Knife Fight

Back on the January edition of the pod, Matt and Alan discussed the concept (popularized by Satya Nadella) that business applications are in danger of seeing their business logic being ripped out and placed with agents. With regard to recent comments from both Salesforce and ServiceNow, Reworked recently published an article with comments from both Alan and Matt, largely concerned with their public battle to be the AI platform for business. Here, the pair discusses this battle, what it means about M&A, and the core business application market. Right at the end, Salesforce's deal to acquire Informatica, which was announced 5 minutes before recording, is discussed in the context of this battle.

Topic 3: Tactical vs Strategic

Alan's been writing about the difference between strategic and tactical and how they need to be aligned. He and Matt discuss this in the light of the work that Deep Analysis does on a day-to-day basis for our clients.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U1-jqWhNkw

Related Links for Series 4 Episode 5
Matt's "5 Questions for Agentic Planning" blog post
The original AIIM infographic "Is your organization ready for Artificial Intelligence?"
The article on Reworked "ServiceNow and Salesforce Fight to Be the Center of AI Agent Operations"
The "....a load of CRUD?" topic on business applications, agents and business logic" in January's podcast (it's topic 2)

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The twenty-sixth episode of the podcast that you know and love as "We Love Ugly Data!" is out; available in audio form everywhere you get your podcasts from and additionally in video form via YouTube (which we've embedded below). As usual it’s three topics in (just a touch over) 30 minutes, and the show notes are included just below the embedded video. We're back to Matt and Alan again this month, with a (lengthy) discussion on the latest edition of the Work Intelligence Market Analysis for 2025-2030, the importance of marking your own homework in public and the first round of our new repeating slot; Banned Words .

In this month’s episode:

Topic 1: New Work Intelligence Market Analysis

It's that time of the year again for the updated version of the Work Intelligence Market Analysis covering the years 2025-2030 - the third edition of the report - and Matt and Alan discuss some of the highlights from the report and also look back to the original 2022 analyst report from which it was born (and you can download for free and it's still very relevant). The chat is very process and task mining heavy, with a small mea culpa on perhaps overstating the growth in that part of that market, albeit one which the pair are still really bullish for the important of (which is now being recognised by software vendors trying to put AI agent to work). There's also a sneak on some of the market growth data, which leads us nicely into the next topic.

Topic 2: Marking our homework

Matt talks (via a staggering fact about his haircare routine) about how important it is for the Work Intelligence Market Analysis numbers to be defensible and that means showing the long-term effects of the sizing data (basically to show the over/under delta on the data). Alan has separately recorded a brief video with his feeling about analyst market numbers, in which he seems a little bit cross.

Topic 3: Banned words list

Finally, it's time for a new rolling segment (to replace our most recent one on analyst value, which we've just written up), with a new one; banned words. Here Matt and Alan choose a word (or phrase) they never want to see or hear every again in relation to technology and in return they nominate a cliché of their own they they like to use, but will give up in return. So this time, let's wave goodbye to "out of the box" and "seamlessly integrated".

Related Links for Series 4 Episode 4
Matt's blog post about Writer getting excited about processes analysis
The announcement blog for the Work Intelligence Market Analysis 2025-2030
The original Work Intelligence introduction report from 2022

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The twenty-fifth episode of the podcast that you know and love as "We Love Ugly Data!" is out; available in audio form everywhere you get your podcasts from and additionally in video form via YouTube (which we've embedded below). As usual it’s three topics in (just a touch over) 30 minutes, and the show notes are included just below the embedded video. This time, it's Matt and Dan are in the chairs for this IDP-focused edition, discussing; the newly launched "Intelligent Document Processing Market Analysis 2025-2028: IDP at the Crossroads" report, IDP and Agents and the final instalment of how analysts add value (and when they don't).

In this month’s episode:

Topic 1: New IDP Market Analysis

It's that time of the year again for the updated version of Dan's magnum opus, the "Intelligent Document Processing Market Analysis", covering the years 2025-2028 and coming with the intriguing subtitle "IDP at the Crossroads". Dan explains some of the headlines from the report: how revenue is still increasing, where this growth is the most notable among the sub-markets, and where the expectations amongst vendors lay for forward-looking financial performance.

Topic 2: IDP & Agents

As Matt mentions, if you don't talk about Agents on a software podcast the Police will call on you to ask why, it's time to talk about Agents from an IDP perspective. It's the number one trend within the report and Dan has some survey data from IDP vendors to share about their outlook for Agents within their product roadmaps (hint: it's an explosion of agents, but you're not surprised are you?). Matt also mentions that if you've not read the free report on Agents that we published in January, what on earth are you doing? Really?

Topic 3: Analyst Value (pt 3)

Finally, it's Dan's turn to contribute to the topic of when analysts add value and when they don't (adding to the contributions that Matt and Alan have made during the last couple of episodes. Dan plumps for "calling the baby ugly" and competitive analysis in the plus column, with lacking in of real world business experience & "TL;DR analysts" in the negative column. We could explain the ugly baby and TL;DR references to you here and now, but why not have a quick listen and let Dan explain their meaning himself?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBjYCEkCDR4

Related Links for Series 4 Episode 2
Intelligent Document Processing Market Analysis 2025-2028: IDP at the Crossroads is available for Deep Analysis subscribers immediately, or if you're not and would like it as a one-off purchase, you can get it here.
"AI Agents: What They Are, How They Work, and Where Organizations Might Best Use Them" can be downloaded here for FREE (OK, a few personal details but no actual money).
Matt's blog post "Use process analysis to reflect who you are – another lesson from Work Intelligence".
More on the "More Cowbell" sketch that Dan refers to.

Support the show

The twenty-fourth episode of the podcast that you know and love as "We Love Ugly Data!" is out; available in audio form everywhere you get your podcasts from and additionally in video form via YouTube (which we've embedded below). We're back to our usual format this time, so it’s three topics in (just a touch over) 30 minutes, and the show notes are as usual included just below the embedded video. Matt and Alan are in the chairs for this edition, this time discussing; our latest MMI research on AI and automation (that we've conducted with support from Hyland), that Enterprise Search appears to be back (again) and another instalment of how analysts add value (and when they don't).

In this month’s episode:

Topic 1: New MMI available

As you know, we're not the greatest at telling people about the great work that we do, but that stops right now* with Matt and Alan discussing the "Deep Analysis Market Momentum Index™: Intelligent Automation, Artificial Intelligence, and Data" report that we've recently launched with support from Hyland. It's packed with fresh research data on a range of topics around AI, automation and data, but for this segment Matt has picked out just two of the data points to discuss; 1. it's not a shortage of workers that's driving AI (and intelligent automation) projects and 2) data; important, disparate and often incomplete. The results of what is and what is not driving enterprise AI and the state of enterprise data will astonish (if not surprise) those of you with a passing interest in the subject.

(* we can't guarantee that this will stop now, unfortunately)

Topic 2: Don’t call it a comeback (Enterprise Search)

Alan's written a blog post - "The Revival of Enterprise Search: Lessons from the Past in the Age of Agentic AI" - in no small part inspired by the revival of lots of the use cases around Enterprise Search (if not the name itself, because of its terrible reputation for being a bottomless money pit). Here he discusses how the underlying problems have never gone away - as pointed to in the aforementioned research data - and how those challenges, with the more recent appearance of LLMs, have driven new interest in the technology. Much like last month's discussion about Agents (and the very common deterministic tasks vs less common probabilistic ones), the pair point to a very similar and not unrelated split in search query intent (Matt calls this recover vs discover).

Topic 3: Analyst Value (pt 2)

Finally, Matt and Alan return to the topic that they started in the last podcast of what makes great value for customers with industry analysts and what doesn't. This time Alan talks about "telling the truth" and "invented numbers" while Matt adds "super specialisms" and declaring "X is dead".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ9M8wxFTbA

Related Links for Series 4 Episode 2
You can download the Hyland sponsored "Deep Analysis Market Momentum Index™: Intelligent Automation, Artificial Intelligence, and Data" here, for FREE.
If you missed the previous MMI report "AI and Unstructured Data Management, conducted by Deep Analysis with support from AIIM and M-Files", you can also download that for FREE too!
If you'd like to hear Matt and Alan discussing that previous MMI report, then you'll want to go back September '24's podcast for that, which you can find right here.

Support the show

The twenty-third episode of the podcast that you know and love as "We Love Ugly Data!" is out; available in audio form everywhere you get your podcasts from and in video form via YouTube (which we've embedded below). We're back to our usual format this time, so it’s three topics in (just a touch over) 30 minutes, and the show notes are, as usual, included just below the embedded video. Matt and Alan are in the chairs for this edition, this time discussing our brand new report on AI Agents, whether business applications are just a bunch of CRUD, and how analysts add value (and when they don't).

In this month’s episode:

Topic 1: AI Agent Explainer

Having confidently introduced this episode as the first of series 3, when it's the beginning of series 4 (apologies for that), Matt introduces the first big report release of 2025; "AI Agents: What They Are, How They Work, and Where Organizations Might Best Use Them". The pair discuss why this report is important at this present time and how it is designed as a primer for people being asked in their organizations, "What's our approach to agents?" and provide a guide to their immediate construction and use. Matt goes on to explain that it's the specificity that makes agents different from assistants (and indeed, there's a blog post on this exact subject that, for some reason, he forgot to mention). Oh, and the report is free to download, so there's nothing to stop you from getting your copy right away.

Topic 2: …a load of CRUD?

Next up, Satya Nadella (CEO of Microsoft) was on the B2G podcast (with Bill Gurley and Brad Gerstner) last month, talking about a range of things, including his belief that business applications are simply CRUD (create, read, update, and delete) databases with business logic attached and that the business logic will soon be moving to AI Agents. Matt and Alan discuss this, with Matt rather annoyed at the reductive description being employed and wondering why customers would want to shift logic from well-understood applications into a more expensive, less well-understood alternative.

Topic 3: Analyst Value

Finally, for this month, following up from last year's discussions about the dos and don'ts of analyst briefings and user conferences, Matt and Alan are now taking on their peers in the analyst industry to determine where we all add value to clients and where sometimes we don't. We're fans of the insights from talking to customers but less of the hype (and just plain lousy analysis).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJGd10oTpGQ

Show notes for Series 3, Episode 12.

Related Links for Series 4 Episode 1
Specificity is the key to understanding AI Agents; Matt's intro blog to the new AI Agent research.
AI Agents: What They Are, How They Work, and Where Organizations Might Best Use Them; here's where to grab the report from.
Satya Nadella Reveals ‘How AI Agents Will Disrupt SaaS Models; Outlook Business' write up of Satya Nadella's appearance on the B2G podcast (where he outed all business apps as CRUD).
Here's the full 90 minute YouTube video of the B2G podcast with Satya Nadella.
In case you missed it, here's the post "Analyst Briefings; Dos and Don’ts" that we published last year af

Support the show

The twenty-second episode of the podcast that you know and love as "We Love Ugly Data!" is out; available in audio form everywhere you get your podcasts from and in video form via YouTube (which we've embedded below). This time, the format for our last episode of the year is slightly different, as both Alan and Dan join Matt to look back at the 2024 predictions and highlight 3 of the predictions from our 2025 report.

In this month's special episode, Alan, Dan, and Matt each get to reflect on their prediction from last year and pick out one of this year's to highlight:

Alan's 2025 Prediction: Structured data people will stop treating unstructured data like something that got stuck in their shoes.

First up, Alan reflects on his 2024 prediction, "Knowledge graphs and data meshes will gain traction," which, given all the discussion around enabling data for AI agents, he's giving himself a win (even though it's still a trend that's unfolding). This isn't unconnected to the 2025 prediction, which won't also allow unstructured data to come to the foreground in planning. Still, Alan reckons it will generate a wave of M&A activity as vendors scramble to find tools to fold into their products quickly.

Dan's 2025 Prediction: Intelligent document processing (IDP) companies must cross the border to grow.

Dan gives himself a thumbs up for his prediction of last year: "For the first time in human history, machines will read and process more documents than knowledge workers do," which isn't only likely accurate, it's pretty much impossible to disprove. Clever Dan. For 2025, he points out that for IDP companies to continue to grow, they will have to break out of their respective comfort zones and embrace a broader range of use cases and industries. Oh, and here, too, he's expecting a glut of M&A.

Matt's 2025 Prediction: The shift to “payment on outcome” is going to lead to some awkward conversations between customers and suppliers.

Matt recalls his 2024 prediction: "Generative AI will face its first cold winter.” He reckons it probably did as organizations weighed up the difficulties of making those assistant (Copilot) use cases work within their ways of working. But in 2025, amidst the wave of AI agents, it's the shift in how vendors look to alter their payment terms where Matt reckons there will be some ructions. Payments based on outcomes are a trend here, and while it's not the predominant way of charging (and probably won't ever be), Matt reckons aligning what each side believes success looks like will be a real challenge. The Salesforce statistic Matt mangled a bit in his recollection of the 2024 Dreamforce keynote was monthly numbers of 83.2 billion Flows being executed vs 112,000 prompts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmTqPX1BwsI

Show notes for Series 3, Episode 12.

Predictions Related Links
Here's our 2024 predictions podcast, so you can here past us making those predictions in full.
Our 2025 report in full!
Dan's extended blog on the 2025 IDP trends; Crossing the Border.
Here's Matt talkin

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