• 205. Baking it Down - Top User Submitted Marketing Tips
    Apr 1 2025

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    🪄 Top Marketing Tips - Submitted by group members in March.


    In this week's Baking it Down Podcast - Episode 205 - Top User Submitted Marketing Tips, we challenged the Sugar Cookie Marketing Group in March to make more posts - and 4 winners would be chosen to join The Cookie College on our tab (I'll announce those soon). But the marketing tips were so good, we thought we'd feature a few on this week's podcast!

    The layout of this newsletter will look a little different since I'll include the 📸 screenshots from the authors (gotta give credit where credit's due). I read them in no particular order, but they're all great tips. If you want to see the screenshots, snag our blog at www.sugarcookiemarketing.com/blog this week once I've updated it.

    🎧 The rest of this post will be those marketing tips - but snag this week's podcast episode to hear our take on 'em.

    ✨ 1. Reach back out to corporate clients

    "My marketing tip is don't be afraid to reach out to past corporate clients about ordering again. I just received two orders (one for 300 and one for 1000 cookies) just by reaching out and basically saying, "Hey, you ordered this time last year, would you like to order again?" Sometimes they just need a reminder that they want your cookies." - Tammy

    ✨ 2. Use “for sale” homes for headshots

    "Want to do a branding photoshoot, but thinking your kitchen ain't fancy enough? Why not use a nearby model home? I haven't met the homebuilder yet or the sales person for them, who didn't appreciate the shout-out when you post your pics. Guess what? It's free. I called to ask when their slowest times were & I made plans for an hour. I left them all the baked cookies I had for the shoot." - Sharon

    ✨ 3. Incentives through discounts

    "Every cookie class I've hosted, each attendee gets a little take home gift. I'd love to see what ever one else does! Here’s a sample of mine: I make a mini 3D printed cookie cutter and provide a coupon for either custom orders, or it may sometimes be $5-$10 dollars off the next upcoming cookie class. I find it’s been working very well to get those to return to classes or place orders for customs." - Jennifer

    ✨ 4. Seek out strategic local businesses

    "Local. Businesses. My husband and I have made a list of local businesses in our area, from mom and pop shops to large warehouses, and we've been strategically picking some to take boxes of samples and business cards to.

    • Would this business employ my target clientele?
    • Would bringing samples to this business get my business name in places it isn't currently known?
    • Does this business openly support other small businesses?

    ...are a few of the questions we've been considering.

    We've gone to car dealerships, furniture stores, medical offices, boutiques, salons, coffee shops, YMCAs, and we have more on the list.

    Doing this has greatly increased my following; and shortly after beginning this, the owner of the local Harley Davidson reached out!" - Alayna

    ✨ 5. Be your #1 fan and believe it

    "Start actually thinking of yourself as a business owner! I'm a stay-at-home mom, so when people ask me what I do, that’s what I reply with. I've been listening to the podcast and it's empowered me - and at the dentist the other day the hygienist asked what I did and I said 'I own a custom sugar cookie business' By the time I'd left the office I handed out 5 business cards and have already gotten an order from them." - Tara

    ✨ 6. Save for samples

    "Marketing tip - Have extra cookies left over? Great, cut them in quarters and freeze them. Save them as samples to give out at the next market or event. Always only offer one flavor of a sample otherwise, people will want to try

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    1 hr and 32 mins
  • 204. Baking it Down - In the Market for Farmers Markets
    Mar 25 2025

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    🥦 In the Market for Markets - How to scope out the ideal vendor setup.


    In this week's Baking it Down Podcast - Episode 204 - In the Market for Markets, Corrie wanted to talk about the 5 tips to help you source a strategic farmer's market (or recurring vendor event) relationship that bolsters that bottom line.

    🥕 1. Is the market marketing itself?

    Markets are businesses too - and as a marketing podcast, what would we be if we didn't say the ideal market is well... marketing. Markets live and die by the efforts of their organizers, so if the organization isn't promoting the event - guess what? Foot traffic won't follow.

    🕵️ Finding a market that's doing its job of marketing is a recipe for market success. While it'd be nice if all the vendors did their share of the marketing heavy lifting too (more on that later), finding a market that has social media profiles posted to and updated frequently, a website with all the info necessary for attendees to find their way, and event listings on Facebook and event listing websites are signals that market means business. And business = selling more bakes.

    🥕 2. Do your "market" research

    Research your potential market match before you sign any contracts. Not all markets are created equally, so understanding the implications of this seasonal relationship can make a sales difference if you get stuck with a low performer.

    • 🤔 How long has the market been around?
    • 🤔 How often do you see it recommended when people in community groups ask for local market recs?
    • 🤔 Is the market growing or shrinking?
    • 🤔 Is there diversity in vendor types - think pickle booth, honey booth, etc.?

    Using community groups to get these questions answered is a great way to get authentic feedback (and maybe market your

    🥕 3. Question the organizers

    Once we get outside feedback, it's time to go all in - by that we mean contact the organizers. Now - yes, the organizers are biased in their favor, so we need to keep the questions more "information gather-y" and less "how great are you-y" (we get it, they're great). Here are some ideas:

    • 🤔 Can I get a list of vendors?
    • 🤔 How much does it cost per week? Month? Season?
    • 🤔 What are your weather policies?
    • 🤔 What insurances do you require?
    • 🤔 Do I need to supply the table / tent / chairs?
    • 🤔 Do you have a drop-in rate?
    • 🤔 What are your cancellation policies?

    🥕 4. Contact past vendors

    Contacting past vendors is another great way to get insider info. You might be able to source this by scrolling back through the farmer's market's social media posts from years ago, but another great way is by asking in community groups, "Has anyone been a vendor at the [Farmers Market]? I'd love to ask you a few questions!" Keep in mind, squeaky wheels tend to complain the loudest, so get a few different vendors to give you feedback - one that used to vendor there, one that still vendors there, and maybe one that is considering it. We'd ask them these more open-ended questions to get more authentic responses:

    • 🤔 How do you feel about how the organizers manage the event?
    • 🤔 How many years have you vended here? Do you plan on returning long-term?
    • 🤔 What 2 factors bring you back here year after year?
    • 🤔 If you could change one thing about this market, what would it be?

    🥕 5. Prep for the market

    Once you've found your perfect market match, it's time to really dig in. Treat this market like you would a cookie class - market the market.

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    1 hr and 19 mins
  • 203. Baking it Down - Reasons to Start a Blog
    Mar 18 2025

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    ✍️ Reasons 2 Start a Blog - The SEO, content, and reach benefits.


    In this week's Baking it Down Podcast - Episode 203 - Reasons to Start a Blog, continuing on with our "lessons in websites," I wanted to talk about blogs. I know - we're all about websites when it comes to online sales - but does your website have a blog?

    😅 "Uh, twins - what could I possibly blog about? Reasons people should give me their money in exchange for cookies??"

    Well - kinda, yeah. You see - websites are pretty stagnant. I mean, you got the 4 main pages - home, about, service or products, contact, and then maybe one extraneous page - for cookiers, it could be a page on your cookie classes or your booking process for example.

    But blogs allow websites to be dynamic since blogs are always being updated. ✍️ This fresh content allows more potential for your website to be found in search engines (Google is a search engine). That means it could be a whole new lead source that never sleeps - and a blog can help your website accomplish that.

    🤔 "Okay girls... maaaybe you're onto something, but what could I possibly blog about??"

    Great question - and that's what we talked about in today's podcast.

    Blog posts don't have to be overly complicated, but they do have to stay on topic. And what's your topic? Local and baker - this should help you narrow down your content topics. Now - who are we trying to reach with our blog posts? Local non-baker clients. See where this is headed?

    Don't worry - we'll give you some topic ideas below. Hint: you're overthinking it.

    ✍️ 1. Website SEO benefits

    Because we can add keywords related to our product and associate those product keywords with our location, blog posts have a direct benefit to getting our websites to rank in search engines for "baker near me" type queries (aka searches). Consider this, when a local potential client googles something like, "sugar cookie classes in [Your City]," how can Google associate you with that? Through a blog post you wrote on "everything you need to know before taking a cookie class." You see the connection there? It creates... buzzword incoming... topical relevancy for Google's lil' robot crawlers.

    ✍️ 2. More diverse social media content

    If you find yourself always sharing photos, photos, and more photos to social media, blog post content can benefit two-fold here. You can add a link to an article on "Best Date Ideas in [CITY]" (make one of those ideas attending a cookie class), and share that to your page. It's heck of a lot more interesting than just a photo of a set you baked PLUS it drives traffic to your website (traffic = people). And guess what's also on your website? Your CTAs directing that traffic to place an order. Again - you see how this is all working together?

    ✍️ 3. Reference topics

    You can't bog down your homepage with a ton of text - that would make for a bad UX (user experience aka how real people navigate through your website). So where do we put content that's kinda important, but not important enough to be on our home page menu? Blog posts. You can add "how to defrost cookies" as a blog post and link it to any clients who need to... well, know how to dethaw a set. You can keep that concept going with, "How to store a DIY kit," or "How to use a scribe" and "What to bring to a Cookie Class" - the ideas are endless when the topics can be used as a knowledge base for customers.

    ✍️ 4. Local topics ripe for reshares

    Okay - what did we say earlier? Both content about baking and location - this is where things can get fun. Feature a local business - sta

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    1 hr and 22 mins
  • 202. Baking it Down - Calling All Actions
    Mar 12 2025

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    🔊 Calling All Actions - What are CTA’s and how to use them.


    In this week's Baking it Down Podcast - Episode 202 - Calling All Actions, we wanted to talk about a digital marketing buzzword that'll increase your bottom line - and it's stupid simple.

    📞 CTAs - otherwise known as Call To Actions - typically seen as buttons on a website's home page. These lil' buttons tell your users what you want them to do. And they're direct too - no beatin' about the bush when you've got next to no room for additional characters.

    And you know them because you have been clickin' on these little commands for years. They're the buttons that say:

    • 📣 Order Here
    • 📣 Add to Cart
    • 📣 Buy Now
    • 📣 Get 15% Off
    • 📣 Play Now
    • 📣 Subscribe

    Yep - those are CTA's - 🤏 small, concise phrases typically displayed on website buttons telling you the next action to take in the buying process. And you should have them on your website, social media, bios, and print materials = because they work.

    Creating a solid CTA is both simple and complex - because while we don't have a ton of space to work with, we still need to find the optimal command to get our web traffic to take an action. While it may be tempting to make all your CTAs "BUY FROM ME," there's a bit of strategy (and testing) that goes into them.


    📣 1. Be concise and direct

    CTA's are concise and tell the user what to do. "Stream here," "Join here," "Sign up here" - it's very clear what the next actions to take are. We want to keep that concept in all of our CTA's. Wish-washy, too long, and mumbled messaging is a CTA-killer. "Maybe if you want to join the newsletter I send out sometimes, you can click here... if you want." 🥺👉👈

    Yeah - that's not going to cut it for a solid CTA. Short. Clear. To the Point. The next step. That's the goal with the CTA.

    📣 2. Use action-oriented verbs

    Do this. Stop that. Click here. Subscribe there. Buy this. Add that to cart. Each CTA should include a verb - because we're calling people to do an action. That's how they work. They command people to take an action. And we, the sheeple, love to be told what to do next. We're conditioned to look for CTA's to guide us through a website's user experience.

    📣 3. Highlight benefits

    If you look at our revamped sugarcookiemarketing.com website, you can see I marry each of our CTAs with a reason why it's worth clicking the button. "Join the community... to get free bakery marketing help." "Stream the podcast... to learn one marketing tip each Tuesday." The CTA tells them what to do - the supporting text tells them why they'd be stupid not to do it.

    📣 4. Make them visually appealing

    CTAs are typically associated with buttons - so make them buttons POP, baby girl! If you look at the SCM (sugar cookie marketing) website, you'll see I opted for bright pink buttons in our brand colors + white bolded text. I even added emojis where possible to further draw attention to my money-maker buttons.

    📣 5. Keep it simple

    CTA's should be single-step commands. "Sign up here" takes them to your newsletter registration form. "Book now" should take them to your booking page. "Add to cart" should immediately add the baked item to carts. Now is not the time to increase your funnel. CTA's are intended to decrease funnel length, and that means a shorter buying process (and less time to second guess whether they should splurge on custom cookies or not).

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    1 hr and 17 mins
  • 201. Baking it Down - Value over Price
    Mar 4 2025

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    💰 Value over Price - How to stand out in saturation.


    In this week's Baking it Down Podcast - Episode 201 - Value Over Price, Corrie happened upon a "bomb pop Facebook Live" - and from a marketing standpoint, it's a fascinating business model.

    It's a multi-level business model - but that's not what the podcast is focused on. The concept is this: the seller pre-sells 5 bath bombs for $20 a piece - bundle price of $100. Once purchased, she reveals what the bath bomb hides - a piece of jewelry.

    After the reveal of each piece of jewelry, the seller exclaims, "Wow - a ring valued at $350! What a steal - you got it for just $20!" And therein lies the key - value. Because we all know that the costume jewelry wasn't worth $350, but value is relative to the perception of the buyer and seller.

    In the words of the ever-successful Warren Buffett, "Price is what you pay; value is what you get." The same applies to cookies.

    Instead of competing on price (an unwinnable negotiation when Oreos are in play), compete instead on value. By increasing perceived value, we can maintain and even increase price.

    Increasing value can be done in many ways - just being readily available or responding quicker than the next baker can increase the perceived value of your clients. It sharpens the industry as competition strives to increase their perceived value over the next baker. The consumer wins, the sellers don't get complacent, and the invisible hand of the economy keeps the wheels turning.

    It's increasing value across your brand that makes the big difference between you and your competitor - so always be looking for ways to "up the ante."

    But if you'd like a list (because you know the twins like them a list), we've got one for you. Here's the big takeaway though: move every chess piece in "value added" before you move the "price adjustment" piece. Your price is your profitability - messing with that is a recipe for a bad bakery.

    💰 1. Increased value through photography.

    We buy with our eyes - and our eyes see good photography. By changing nothing but increasing the quality of your product photos, you can increase value without having to decrease price. With high quality standing, images, and backdrops - you can nearly have your cookies jump off the newsfeed and into the hearts ( and wallets) of your customers.

    💰 2. Increase value through customer service.

    My favorite way to increase value is by increasing the value of your customer service. Answering emails faster, having better ordering guidelines, handing refunds quickly and without opposition, heck - replying to Facebook comments in groups and keeping your branding updated on your page all signal to the client that you're putting a value on customer services (and thus you can charge accordingly).

    💰 3. Increase value through decorating skills.

    If communication ain't your thang, you can always work on increasing value by increasing your skill set. A better product is a part of perceived value. Couple a stunning product with stunning photography and you've got a match made in value heaven. Being able to accommodate more requests because you possess those skills is a way to carve out your place in a crowded market.

    💰 4. Increase value through ease-of-ordering.

    A better website, a better organization of products, better website copy, better check-out options, better order confirmation - all of these are methods you can use to increase your value perception within your market.

    💰 5. Increase value through customer reviews.

    Easy one - have enough other people proclaim your value that other potential clients can't help but increase their perception of you.

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    1 hr and 9 mins
  • 200. Baking it Down - Bu-cee's
    Feb 25 2025

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    🦫 Buc-ee's - A beaver’s marketing lessons.


    In this week's Baking it Down Podcast - Episode 200 - Buc-ee's, Corrie and I took in all that the beaver gas station had to offer in our quick trip down to Nashville, TN this weekend.

    If you've not been to the roadside bathroom stalls of your dreams yet (aka Buc-ee's Fuel Stops), you're missing out - it's... I don't know that words adequately describe what a Buc-ee's truly is - but I'll say it's fantastic and overwhelmingly so.

    Which is why twin2 and I stood in awe for a solid 10 minutes soaking in all that is Buc-ee's - which makes it so talked about and thus an adequate topic for today's podcast. So yes - instead of "marketing nuggets," this week we're gettin' "beaver nuggets."

    Now if you've been to a Buc-ee's, you likely know what I'm going to point out - but we're extrapolating the beaver's marketing to bakeries so pay attention (no - stop looking at the man dressed as a beaver - f-o-c-u-s).

    🦫 1. Efficiency - endless fuel pumps (and potties)

    If there's one takeaway from the land of to-go, it's the efficiency. If you've not witnessed a Buc-ee's endless line of fuel pumps - their goal is 0 wait times, and boy do they have it mastered. You pull in, get gas, find a spot to park in front of what feels like 3 main entrances, and then you walk into the land of "over-optimized" with endless bathroom stalls, endless soda dispensers, endless selection, and endless check-out lanes.

    Much like "the buc," the baker can sharpen up efficiency with a more streamlined ordering process, a well-thought-out website, a great CRM, and a nice pick-up reminder campaign - the more you optimize, the better your client's experiences, the more competitive you are in your space.

    🦫 2. Optimized - NO TRUCKS

    Buc-ee's knows that by cutting out catering to semi-trucks, it can keep the flow goin' thus all Buc-ee's entrances have large NO TRUCK signage. Just like Buc-ee's, we can limit our offerings to the products we know generate cashflow. Yes - you'll be turning down orders, but in the long run, like the beaver, you'll be optimized for the products that bring a profit without bringing analysis paralysis to your client base.

    🦫 3. Clean and Organized

    Ever year, we do a "spring cleaning" curb appeal episode of the podcast (coming soon), but man does the beaver understand what clean floors and cleaner displays do for the buyer's mind. When I see clean restrooms I automatically assume the kitchen is clean. We can borrow from the Buc-ee's here too - keep your front stoop clean, do your hair and makeup on pick-up days (I struggle with this one), and light that vanilla-scented candle for when that customer pops their head inside.

    You can organize your digital stoop as well - refreshed social media pages and a clean website have the same "I feel safe here" effect as a bathroom stall with plenty of TP.

    🦫 4. Merchandising - refreshed product displays

    This is geared more towards the vendor and farmer's market baker, but walking down the Buc-ee's chip aisle, all the products had been moved to the front of the stand. When I snagged a bag (who doesn't like a Ranch Dorito from time to time, amiright?) a Buc-ee's employee was right behind me to refresh again.

    🦫 5. Welcoming - WELCOME TO BUCEES

    And can we say that Buc-ee's employees are SUPER friendly!? I know it's likely a part of their job description, but every time I walked through the front doors (of which there felt like more than one), a very busy check-out clerk welcomed us each and every time. And bakers can do that too - be super welcoming in your emails, your social posts, your messenger responses, your reminder texts, and your in-person pick-ups. It makes a HUGE difference in how your customer

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    1 hr and 9 mins
  • 199. Baking it Down - Are Your Sales Slow Right Now?
    Feb 18 2025

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    🧐 Are Your Sales Slow? - Here’s how to shift that mindset.


    For this week's Baking it Down Podcast - Episode 199 - Are Your Sales Slow Right Now?, we wanted to cover the question that pops up every post-Valentine's Day rush... the nagging feeling that your business feels slow and leads are down.

    What gives? 😢 Why does that one baker post that this was their best Vday yet and yet you're nowhere near their "units sold" number? 😓 Is your business dying? 😖 Are you losing your edge? 😩 Is it market saturation? 😭 Is it... time to throw in the proverbial tea towel prop? 🧣

    Here's the thing - feelings don't matter. 📉 Metrics do. Are you actually slow? And if yes, what did you water with your marketing efforts?

    💦 Corrie pointed out that marketing is like a garden - and we tend to water certain goals. 🌱 If you wanted to teach your first Valentine's Day cookie class, guess what - 📉 your customs are probably down - 📈 because your classes are up.

    I posted this in the Sugar Cookie Marketing group this week:

    • 😭 If you read that a baker sold 60 units for Valentine's Day THIS year, and you only sold 50 units - you'll feel like you're business is shrinking by 16%
    • 😀 But if you sold 30 units for Valentine's Day LAST year, and this year, you sold 50 units - your business is actually growing, and you're 66% ahead of last year.


    🔍 Perspective is everything. Focus on the right metrics. That's what today's podcast is focused on - focusing on numbers that actually have meaning instead of your feelings which can switch depending on the weather, what's for lunch, and if your spouse was nice to you this morning.

    📈 1. Compare your "this year" to your "last year."

    Comparing your "this year" to a random baker's "this year" is a recipe for disappointment. You all have nothing in common other than selling cookies. Comparing your market in rural Iowa to my Washington DC market makes 0 business sense. What does make sense? Comparing how your sales were this time last year to the same time this year. You'll be able to truly see if you grew that bottom line.

    👉 Remember - your biggest competition is yourself yesterday - beat that baker!

    📈 2. Compare $$ to $$.

    Instead of comparing "how many customs did I sell," consider comparing, "how much money did I make." The secret is this: if you raised your prices, you may have actually sold less but made more. That means an increase in your bottom line and a decrease in labor costs = a business win. Money matters!

    📈 3. Consider where you focused your marketing efforts.

    I had someone reply to the thread I posted saying, "My sales are down from last year to this year, what gives!" Fortunately, I'd seen their posts that prior month. They had started teaching cookie classes! So yeah - their customs were down (another reason to compare bottom lines) but their class tickets were up. In fact, they'd sold out three Valentine's Day classes - THREE! So where they watered = where it grew. And of course, the counterpoint to that is if you focus on something new, something old may not be in the limelight as much.

    📈 4. Look at metrics, not feelings.

    A lot of times I see bakers "feel" that sales are slow. Feelings are unreliable - heck, they say if you need to appear before a judge, do so right after lunch because judges with full bellies tend to be more lenient than judges who have grumbling tummies. Focus on metrics. Meta gives us a ton of free, easy-to-use metrics. Google Analytics also allows us to gauge without the grump meaning we know exactly what happened and why instead of goin' on an unreliable hunch.

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    1 hr and 15 mins
  • 198. Baking it Down - Weather with Heather (and Corrie)
    Feb 12 2025

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    ❄️ Weather with Heather (and Corrie) - Weather policies 101.


    This week's Baking it Down Podcast - Episode 198 - Weather with Heather (and Corrie), we talk about the very reason why the Baking it Down Podcast was a day late this week - ❄️ bad weather.

    🌪️ They say the only job you can guess wrong every time and still be employed is being a weatherman - 😭 and that's what makes weather events and cookie pick-ups a match made in refund hell.

    So - how to predict the unpredictable? 🌧️ Here are our hot takes on cold weather in this week's podcast (🌡️ also yes, I (Heather) wanted to be a weather person because I thought it would be a neat radio tag like to say, "Weather with Heather on the 8's."

    ❄️ 1. You need a weather policy right now.

    Your best friend when it comes to handling bad weather is a weather policy - 📝 a simple page on your website (ideal), a post on your Facebook Page (okay), or even a Google Doc (easy) that states what your plans are in the event of inclement weather can help you set expectations before the flurries fall. If you wait to enact a weather disclaimer after the bad weather hits, 😠 you've got a recipe for a bunch of angry reviews falling from the fingers of unhappy clients.

    While you're at it - have a separate policy for both 🍪 pick-ups and 🎟️ classes since both can be different enough that one policy won't necessarily apply to both a pick-up order and a class attendee.

    ❄️ 2. No one reads - so repeat, repeat, repeat.

    Making a single post to your Facebook page about a class cancelation for weather isn't going to cut it. 👓 No one reads (and even if they did, the algos don't let posts reach them anyways), so make sure the weather communication is across the board.

    I'm talkin' r-e-p-e-t-i-t-i-v-e as in:

    • ❄️ Facebook Page Post - 7 days out, 4 days out, day of
    • ❄️ Website banner / pop-up
    • ❄️ Newsletter Email - 7 days out
    • ❄️ Individual Emails - 7 days out, 4 days out, day before, day of
    • ❄️ Individual Texts - 7 days out, 4 days out, day before, day of

    In the world of communication, less is never more - more is more.

    ❄️ 3. Get in front of weather events.

    🥶 When weather is in the forecast, start messaging clients before it starts precipitating. 🧊 You'll know you've not beat the storm communication when it's your clients asking you what the plan is. Don't be that baker - get to them before they start to panic. It'll show that you've got this handled and aren't panicked yourself.

    ❄️ 4. Offer Refunds / Credits for Classes | Freezing for Pick-Ups

    When it comes to cookie class cancelations, I like to offer a full refund or an incentivized option to roll into the next class (and save on their Eventbrite fees). Here's our take - if you signed up for a class that got canceled and you couldn't get your money back, how would you feel? "Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you" - the Bible (🙏 and these bakers).

    Now more tricky - 🧊 communicating to the custom cookie order client that freezing a cookie is actually an effective way to keep it fresh. And you'll be able to accomplish this by stating that in your "weather cookie pick-up policy." 🥶🔥 The thought of "frozen thawed" for the average user signals a lack of freshness, so the words you use here to sell them on a delayed pick-up are important.

    ❄️ 5. Take their orders to them & have insurance.

    🚫 Your homeowner's insurance policy will deny that claim made by the lady who slipped on your front porch picking up her cookie order so fast, it'll make yo

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    1 hr and 23 mins