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Work hurt is real, and ministry leaders aren’t exempt. Whether it’s being let go, navigating toxic work environments, or simply enduring deep disappointments, our vocational pain can shape us in ways we never expected—and often never wanted.

In this episode, author of When Work Hurts, shares her own journey through work hurt, explores the different ways leaders experience vocational pain, and offers practical and spiritual resources for healing and resilience.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Meryl Herr shares her personal story of “work hurt” and how it led her to address the topic in her work and writing.
• Meryl Herr describes feeling disillusioned early in her career when her expectations for work did not align with reality, leading to discouragement and even unexpected job loss.
• Work hurt occurs when people sustain physical or psychological injuries in their workplace.
• Meryl Herr categorizes work hurt as stemming from toxic systems, unhealthy cultures, issues of job fit, and personal mistakes.
• Work hurt can be experienced as disappointment, disillusionment, or devastation, each having different causes and emotional impacts.
• Meryl Herr notes that people’s tolerance for disappointment, disillusionment, and devastation is highly individual.
• Significant numbers of workers experience work hurt, including burnout, discrimination, and disengagement, as reflected in recent research and statistics.
• Discrimination and harassment at work affect certain demographic groups more acutely, highlighting systemic injustice and inequity.
• Meryl Herr stresses the need for individuals to acknowledge and process their work-related pain, rather than internalizing it or transmitting it to others.
• If people do not transform their work pain, they risk transmitting it as cynicism, projection, or stress in personal and family relationships.
• Community support, honest conversation, prayer—especially lament—and listening to God are central strategies for healing from work hurt.
• Meryl Herr encourages practices of discerning God’s presence and call, likening vocational discernment to “wayfinding” that requires attention to context, one’s gifts, and God’s invitation.
• Being called to a vocation or job does not mean one is exempt from pain or suffering; Meryl Herr and Markus Watson both connect this to biblical examples of hardship in the midst of calling.
• Pastors play an important role by understanding and addressing the work hurt in their congregations and by providing practical, emotional, and spiritual support.
• Meryl Herr recommends cultivating “everyday faithfulness,” showing up and doing the daily work set before us as a foundational way to keep moving forward through disruption, loss, and fear.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Meryl Herr:
  • Website – www.merylherr.com
  • DePree Center for Leadership
• Books mentioned:
  • When Work Hurts, by Meryl Herr
  • Falling Upward, by Ruchard Rohr
• Related episodes:
  • 114. Meaningful Work,

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Drawing on the challenges of feeling marginalized and the importance of resting in God’s love, this episode explores the vital role that self-compassion plays in leadership. Tod Bolsinger shares wisdom on facing anxiety and insecurity, especially when leaders are stepping into the unknown and leaving behind their expertise. Instead of "faking it till you make it," Tod encourages authenticity, resilience, and building trust within a community.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Jenai Auman in Ep. 252: Navigating the Pain of Being “Othered”:

"Sometimes I need to experience self-compassion and quell the insecurity within me so I can extend compassion and love to my neighbor."

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Leaders cultivate self compassion to address their own insecurity before extending compassion to others.
• Adaptive leaders acknowledge their anxiety and insecurity rather than suppressing or faking confidence.
• Leaders practice honesty with themselves and those they lead about the difficulties and uncertainties of new challenges.
• Leaders invite trustworthy people to join them in facing the unknown, creating a supportive environment.
• Leaders embrace authenticity and vulnerability as central to healthy and transformative leadership.

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Josh Hayden, the author of Remissioning Church: A Field guide for Bringing a Congregation Back to Life, shares wisdom from his own journey—moving from church planting to leading a 158-year-old congregation—and he helps us understand the difference between revitalization and remissioning. He also talks about the power of what he calls “creative destruction” and reflects on the hope that churches and people really can change. If you are a ministry leader wondering how to lead your church through deep transformation and discovering a renewed mission, you’ll find both encouragement and practical guidance in this conversation.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Josh Hayden explains that remissioning involves inside-out transformation of the church through discipleship for the sake of neighbors and the world.
• Revitalization focuses on refreshing existing programs, while remissioning addresses deeper, DNA-level transformation.
• Josh Hayden underscores the importance of listening first—both to the church and the neighborhood—before making plans for change.
• Markus Watson highlights the challenge new pastors face in established churches, including resistance, sabotage, and managing change.
• Remissioning leaders must exegete both their congregation and their community to identify gaps and opportunities for meaningful connection.
• Josh Hayden stresses that successful remissioning requires teamwork; pastors must not attempt change alone.
• Markus Watson reflects on the emotional challenges of change, including the shame spiral that can occur when a church confronts its shortcomings.
• Josh Hayden illustrates the shame spiral with an example of unnoticed “No Running in the Halls” signs that undermined stated values of hospitality.
• Remissioning involves inviting the congregation into a process of repentance, learning, and transformation, rather than imposing outside solutions.
• Josh Hayden shares how tradition-to-innovation means honoring a church’s history while translating it into practices that serve current needs.
• Experiments in ministry should create shared experiences that allow for evaluation, learning, and adaptation over time.
• Josh Hayden describes creative destruction as embracing necessary endings so new life can emerge, drawing analogy from nature and industry.
• Effective change involves creating feedback loops, town hall conversations, and allowing time for the congregation to process and adapt.
• Not all experiments or changes need to succeed; failed experiments still provide valuable lessons for ongoing transformation.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Josh Hayden:
  • Iwa Collabora website
• Books mentioned:
  • Remissioning Church, by Josh Hayden
  • Canoeing the Mountains, by Tod Bolsinger
• Related episodes:
  • 16. Canoeing the Mountains, with Tod Bolsinger
  • 192. Leading Change Without Authority, with Roy Inzunza
  • 264. Building a Future-Focused Church, with Kara Powell, Jake M

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Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger unpack the fascinating connection between the Latin roots of “prayer” and “precarious”—suggesting that it’s often in our most uncertain moments that we’re drawn into deeper dependence on God. Together, they explore how precarious situations not only shape our leadership but also form and mature our prayer lives. You’ll also hear practical wisdom on leading others in prayer through times of change and how discernment, rather than just asking God to bless our plans, is central to a healthy approach to leadership.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Jeff Hoffmeyer in Ep. 246: Have We Forgotten to Pray?:

"The Latin word for prayer is the same root for ‘precarious’. So, I think when we're in a precarious situation, God's desire is that we'll be driven to dependence on prayer."

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Leaders cultivate their prayer lives in the midst of precarious situations.
• Leaders experience spiritual formation when they become aware of their dependence on God.
• Leaders guide their congregations into discernment by seeking God’s voice together.
• Leaders model a deep prayer life by honestly acknowledging their limitations.
• Leaders resist making plans independently and instead invite God to direct their path.

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For a lot of us, evangelism has become kind of utilitarian—just another tool to stop our church’s decline and hopefully secure a future for our congregation. But what if, instead of simply trying to grow our numbers or help people go to heaven when they die, we reframed evangelism as an act of journeying alongside people in their deepest pain, bringing truly good news to those who are struggling to find hope?

In this episode, Andrew Root, the author of Evangelism in an Age of Despair, challenges us to rethink evangelism as a ministry of consolation—a ministry that meets people where they are, in moments of suffering and loneliness.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Andrew Root defines what he means by "the age of despair" and whose despair he references.
• Andrew Root explains that despair is a widespread cultural malaise, marked by sadness, unhappiness, and a rise in loneliness and rage.
• Despair in the world is not just circumstantial, but is rooted in the cultural emphasis on pursuing happiness, which ironically increases unhappiness.
• Andrew Root describes two forms of despair in the church: one shared with the wider culture, and the other, a fear of decline and extinction unique to congregations.
• Churches are tempted to view evangelism mainly as a way to increase attendance and avoid closing, rather than as sharing good news.
• Markus Watson reflects that treating evangelism as a utilitarian tool for survival creates questions about the real motivation for sharing the gospel.
• Evangelism should be understood as contextual and as a way of consoling neighbors in moments of loss, rather than following a fixed formula.
• Andrew Root states that the central work of evangelism involves the theology of consolation—being present with others in their brokenness and grief.
• Evangelism is about responding to Jesus’s call and helping people encounter Him, especially within their contexts of sorrow and loneliness.
• Andrew Root discusses the failure of social media and modern culture to offer true consolation or presence to people in grief.
• Consolation involves walking with people through suffering, which is an important aspect of Christian tradition and a necessity in these lonely times.
• Markus Watson observes that the traditional “four spiritual laws” approach doesn’t address the needs of people experiencing profound sorrow.
• Andrew Root argues that faithfulness in the church is not simply measured by numerical growth, and that addressing people’s suffering is not a distraction from its mission.
• Evangelism should invite people to join a pilgrimage, walking together through sorrow and loss toward a deeper encounter with God.
• The church’s calling is to create communities that walk with others in their pain, offering hope and the presence of Christ, instead of merely aiming for church growth.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Andrew Root:
  • Website
• Books mentioned:
  • Evangelism in an Age of Despair, by Andrew Root
  • The Church After Innovation, by Andrew Root
  • The Promise of Despair, by Andrew Root

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In this episode, Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger explore what it really means to lead with care—especially when consensus isn’t possible and someone might get hurt. Tod brings his insight on adaptive leadership, highlighting the tension between seeking unity and making tough, missional choices that can disappoint or cause pain. Together, Markus and Tod reflect on how Jesus modeled mission-centered leadership, caring for people while staying true to his calling—even when it meant letting others down.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Marc Schelske in Ep. 258: Walking the Path of Other-Centered Leadership:

“If I really love all the people that are impacted by this decision, then this decision has to be consensual."

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Leaders foster togetherness when they involve everyone in the decision-making process.
• Healthy leadership accepts that some decisions will inevitably cause pain or disappointment.
• Groups achieve consensus when everyone commits to follow the chosen path, even amidst disagreement.
• Leadership requires balancing love for people with dedication to the organization's mission.
• Leaders best serve their communities when they offer care to those most affected by painful decisions.

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What does ministry look like when your church gathers at the very place that’s meant to divide? In this episode, Seth Clark invites us into the powerful story of The Border Church, where the simple act of worship confronts separation with the radical unity of God’s love, and where he and his congregants—on both sides of the wall—have had to adapt to a reality in which the powers make it harder and harder for them to worship together.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Seth Clark describes the Border Church as a practice of publicly experiencing God's presence and unity at a site of division.
• The Border Church centers its ministry around sharing holy communion as a visible act of God’s love in a divided context.
• Seth Clark explains how families from both sides have long used Friendship Park to connect despite restrictive border policies.
• Border Church started as periodic communion services at the border and gradually grew into a more structured worship community.
• Seth Clark recounts the agreement that allowed Friendship Park to open for limited hours on weekends, enabling regular gatherings.
• Physical barriers at the border forced participants to adapt, sharing only a pinky touch through the mesh as a sign of peace.
• Leadership of the Border Church came by community discernment when the founding pastor stepped down, Seth Clark shares.
• Border Church functions without a traditional building, requiring creative leadership and adaptability in its pastoral approach.
• The COVID-19 pandemic and persistent border lockdowns have forced the church to continually reinvent how it worships and connects.
• Seth Clark highlights the shift of pastoral needs toward the Mexico side as waves of migrants and asylum seekers increased.
• Border Church supports partnerships with local shelters, providing meals and spiritual care for migrants waiting at the border.
• Markus Watson explores the deep sense of loss, frustration, and adaptation that accompanies changes to how the Border Church operates.
• Seth Clark emphasizes the importance of faithfulness over visible results, especially when facing circumstances beyond one’s control.
• Leading through loss involves distinguishing between what can and cannot be changed, and supporting people in navigating change and grief.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• The Border Church:
  • Facebook
  • Instagram - @theborderchurch
• Books mentioned:
  • Church at the Wall, by Seth Clark
• Related episodes:
  • 88. The Border Church, with Seth Clark
  • 119. Being Leaders of Grace in a Divided World, with Kirsten Powers
  • 120. Forming Leadership Resilience, with Tod Bolsinger

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This conversation reflects on the urgent need for genuine transformation in the church, rather than simply tweaking what isn’t working. Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore the signs that point to deeper issues—like plateauing membership, aging congregations, and stagnating giving—and why now is the time for a true “hero’s journey” of change, not just rearranging the chairs on the Titanic.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Rex Miller in Ep. 254: Digital Disruption and the Future of the Church:

"There are some telltale signs that it's time to go on a hero's journey. One telltale sign is we're plateauing in our membership. Or our members are getting older. Or our giving is plateauing. Now is not the time to try to rearrange the chairs on the Titanic.”

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Church leaders recognize critical signs—like plateauing membership, aging congregations, and stagnant giving—that indicate the need for deep transformation.
• Leaders create only superficial change when they settle for “rearranging the chairs on the Titanic” instead of tackling the root issues.
• Effective leadership requires admitting when you don’t know what to do and being willing to learn all over again.
• Leaders lose key, healthy members when they make ministry primarily about themselves rather than about something greater.
• Transformation happens when leaders embrace adaptive change, let go of their expertise, and journey into new ways of leading.

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