How does oak aging change wine and whisky flavour, colour and texture? What do glass, gears, and automatons have to do with the invention of distillation? Why is yeast such an essential tool in scientific research and wine production, especially in the face of climate change?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Adam Rogers, author of the New York Times bestseller Proof: The Science of Booze.

You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks

Giveaway

One of you is going to win a copy of his terrific new book, Full Spectrum: How the Science of Color Made Us Modern. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at natalie@nataliemaclean.com and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose one person randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!

Highlights

What are some of the traits that new yeasts are being developed for?

Why does sugar deserve the title of most important molecule in the world?

How is human saliva used in the production of Chicha, one of the oldest types of alcoholic beverage?

What is microbial terroir and how does it affect the flavour profile of fermented drinks?

Why does Adam describe distillation as the apotheosis of human life on Earth?

How does the process of distillation work?

What is the most important thing we can learn from the alchemists?

Is the shape of a distillation still important to the process?

What's happening to spirits while they’re aging in barrels?

Have there been successful innovations to age wine and spirits more quickly?

Why do some people lose their sense of smell after a concussion?

Key Takeaways

When you're drinking whisky, and it's that beautiful amber color, that's all from the wood. It's completely clear when it goes into a barrel and it's brown when it comes out. So color is part of what changes, and all those flavours. In the process of aging, as the temperature goes up and down, the pores in the wood open and close. As they open, the liquid gets drawn into that layer inside of the wood, and then gets pushed back out. So there's this kind of back-and-forth process, which is why so many of the experimental attempts to accelerate the aging process use heat to try to cycle it faster.

Distillation was developed in the first two to 300 years of the Common Era. People were starting to transform naturally occurring phenomena into a technology that could exist in a temple or in the home. Distillation is one of those technologies, along with a lot of automatons and the simple machines, gears, screws and the steam engines.

Yeasts are a workhorse organism in laboratories because it’s very easy to change their traits and genetics. They share DNA with each other, and when they grow, they mutate very quickly. Generation to generation change. So you can use classic animal or microbial husbandry techniques to change them as well. This can become especially important as climate change changes the regions that are important to wine.

About Adam Rogers

Adam Rogers is a senior correspondent at Business Insider, where he writes about technology, culture, and the ways they overlap. Prior to joining BI, Adam was a longtime editor and writer at WIRED, where his article “The Science of Why No One Agrees on the Color of This Dress” was the second-most-read thing on the entire internet in 2015.

Adam’s WIRED feature story on a mysterious fungus that grows on whisky warehouses won a AAAS/Kavli science journalism award — and led to his 2014 New York Times bestseller Proof: The Science of Booze. Adam is also the author of the 2021 book Full Spectrum: How the Science of Color Made Us Modern. He has also written for Alta, the Atlantic, National Geographic, the New York Times, Slate, and Smithsonian, and may be the only journalist to attend both San Diego Comic-Con and the White House Correspondents Dinner.

To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/331.

How does language about wine impact the way we experience and enjoy wine? How does reporting on alcohol science compare to other scientific topics? Why can yeast be described as a nano-technological machine?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Adam Rogers, author of the New York Times bestseller Proof: The Science of Booze.

You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks

Giveaway

One of you is going to win a copy of his terrific new book, Full Spectrum: How the Science of Color Made Us Modern. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at natalie@nataliemaclean.com and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose one person randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!

Highlights

What was Adam’s experience at a fancy restaurant in Chicago where food critic Jeffrey Steingarten was a fellow patron?

How did a New York restaurant experience expose Adam to the wild science of winemaking?

Why did Adam nearly have an existential moment while writing about the science of grapes?

How does reporting on alcohol science compare to other scientific topics?

Which moments did Adam want to capture in the book?

What were the most surprising insights Adam uncovered while writing Proof and what was the most difficult part of writing it?

Why does Adam describe yeast as a nano-technological machine?

Which facts about yeast did Adam find fascinating?

What have archaeologists discovered about the role of alcohol in early human civilization?

Which cultural approach to alcohol consumption did Adam find most interesting?

How do modern brewers and distillers safeguard their yeast?

Key Takeaways

Adam recounts the story of the couple sitting next to him ordering a dessert wine. The diner asked, “Is that a Vin du Glacier or a noble rot?” The two different ways to make a sweet wine. Just the fact that the diner was informed enough to know that there were these two methods would have a bearing on what he would be tasting. Here was this person operationalizing that interest to make his meal better. He wanted to have more fun.

If you're reporting on science, you have the scientists trying to understand something new or reinterpret understanding and then there are people who that's going to affect. With winemaking, you have practitioners who are often not themselves, scientists. So they are craftspeople in a stakeholder role too.

Louis Pasteur said I think there is an impossibly small, invisible, living creature that eats sugar and poops alcohol, and so the best chemists in the world at that time looked at that as a hypothesis and said, You're nuts. Nobody knew how inert chemicals could be alive. Nobody knew what the connection was. Those things are enzymes and understanding what enzymes do in a living body, that's what gave rise to biochemistry, and ultimately gave rise to biotechnology. That one insight.

About Adam Rogers

Adam Rogers is a senior correspondent at Business Insider, where he writes about technology, culture, and the ways they overlap. Prior to joining BI, Adam was a longtime editor and writer at WIRED, where his article “The Science of Why No One Agrees on the Color of This Dress” was the second-most-read thing on the entire internet in 2015.

Adam’s WIRED feature story on a mysterious fungus that grows on whisky warehouses won a AAAS/Kavli science journalism award — and led to his 2014 New York Times bestseller Proof: The Science of Booze. Adam is also the author of the 2021 book Full Spectrum: How the Science of Color Made Us Modern. He has also written for Alta, the Atlantic, National Geographic, the New York Times, Slate, and Smithsonian, and may be the only journalist to attend both San Diego Comic-Con and the White House Correspondents Dinner.

To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/330.

What makes Sangiovese a difficult wine to grow and make? Why should you pay attention to the white wines of Tuscany? What do you need to know about Tuscany’s Vin Santo?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Susan Keevil

You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks

Giveaway

Two of you are going to win a copy of her terrific book, On Tuscany: From Brunello to Bolgheri, Tales from the Heart of Italy. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at natalie@nataliemaclean.com and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose two people randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!

Highlights

What are some common mistakes people make when comparing Tuscan wines to those from other regions?

What are Super Tuscans and how did they come to be?

Why did these rebel wines capture the imagination of the world in the 70s and 80s?

What’s the new Super Tuscan counter culture about?

Why did Brunello di Montalcino achieve icon status?

What makes Sangiovese difficult to grow and why doesn’t it tend to thrive in North America?

What motivated Susan to include sections on Tuscan white wines and Vin Santo in the book?

How is Vin Santo made and why is there so much variety?

What makes Tuscan olive oil so special?

How can you best pair Tuscan wines with food?

Why would Susan love to be able to share a bottle of wine with Queen Elizabeth II?

Key Takeaways

Susan notes that Sangiovese is like Pinot Noir in that it likes certain terroir, particular soils, the winds of Tuscany, and it is quite a sensitive grape. You can't overproduce it. It responds differently to different sites and it's not good in every vintage. It has so many parallels with Pinot Noir. They don't taste the same, but they behave the same.

Susan likes an underdog story like the white wines of Tuscany, because they're only like 10% of the wines produced, though she believes that the Trebbiano grape is like the evil twin. In the book, Emily O'Hare writes about grapes like Vernaccia, Vermentino and Ansonica that are producing some great wines so we should watch out for them. There's another lovely story about wines of the small island called Giglio. It was raided by the pirate Barbarossa, and he sent all the inhabitants away to be slaves in Constantinople. But he brought back people from a village in Greece, and they bought the grape called Ansonica with them and so those vines are still on the island today. Susan thinks white wines are going to be more important for Tuscany.

If you're going to find a comparison, Susan says that Tokaji is a really good one, because it has that bracing acidity that the Italians love as well. But also, you can't generalize with it. It's a 3,000 year-old-wine, and every farm makes a different version. In the past, they used to collect these grapes because they couldn't handle all the olives and all the grapes all at once. So they would leave some of the grapes in the drying lofts, up in the roofs. They would dry, and concentrate, and the sugars would get sweeter. When everything settled in November or March or February, they would make a wine from these beautiful sweet grapes. And they all have their own natural yeast from the air. And they would seed that yeast into the wine, ferment, and then they would lock it up in its barrel and leave it for seven to eight years. It would shrink, it would ferment. It would stop fermenting. And then at the end of that time, they would open the barrel very carefully, and it was something magnificent, but very, very different. Each producer would have their own.

About Susan Keevil

Susan Keevil is the Editorial Director of Académie du Vin Library, where she has played a pivotal role in establishing and nurturing this esteemed wine publishing house. A former editor of Decanter magazine, she has dedicated her career to the world of wine, from editorial leadership to in-depth exploration of the industry.

To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/329.

How was Brunello discovered? How did the medieval sharecropping system help to shape Tuscany's wine landscape? What's the origin of the iconic black rooster symbol of Chianti Classico?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Susan Keevil, editor of the beautiful hardcover On Tuscany: From Brunello to Bolgheri, Tales from the Heart of Italy.

You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks

Giveaway

Two of you are going to win a copy of her terrific book, On Tuscany: From Brunello to Bolgheri, Tales from the Heart of Italy. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at natalie@nataliemaclean.com and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose two people randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!

Highlights

What inspired Susan to take on the monumental task of compiling and editing On Tuscany?

How is On Tuscany different from other books about the region?

What was the most captivating wine story Susan uncovered while working on the book?

What was the most surprising insight about Tuscany that Susan discovered while putting together On Tuscany?

Why did the timeframe pose the biggest challenge in compiling the book?

How did Susan discover and select literary gems about Tuscany from historic writers?

Why was it important to Susan to write about the Etruscans?

What surprised Susan about the ancient Etruscans’ relationship with wine?

How did the medieval sharecropping system help to shape Tuscany's wine landscape?

What role did the Medici family play in shaping the wine culture in Tuscany?

What was the crisis of Chianti Classico in the 70s and 80s and how did it redefine the future of Tuscan wines?

What's the origin of the iconic black rooster symbol of Chianti Classico?

Why does Tuscany continue to dominate media and culture when it comes to wine?

What’s the history behind the Chianti fiasco?

Key Takeaways

How was Brunello discovered?

Susan says that from 1875 to 1930, the Biondi Santi family hid bottles of brunello bricked up behind a wall. So after the war, they had these wonderful vintages, and they could say, look how it's aged because they didn't know it aged so well at that stage. That was how the discovery of Brunello came about because they brought these cellared wines to feasts and grand occasions with politicians and monarchs.

How did the medieval sharecropping system help to shape Tuscany's wine landscape?

Susan observes that it made it beautiful to start with, because we're talking about small holdings. Small farmers gave 40% of what they produced to the owner, the feudal lord, but they had to eke out a living too. So they had their plot of vines, their plot of olive groves, and they put up their cypress trees to defend them from the winds. That gave the beauty to the countryside, because it makes it a jigsaw, it gives it texture when you look at the hills. That way of farming has set up the beauty of Tuscany that we know today. But of course, there was a lot of poverty that went alongside it.

What's the origin of the iconic black rooster symbol of Chianti Classico?

Susan explains that it came from the 14th century when Siena and Florence were warring as to who was going to be the most powerful of those two towns. They had an agreement that they would send out a horse rider - a knight - early one morning, and wherever those two knights met, would be the boundary between Florence and Siena. The Florentine horse rider set off really early, and they got to within 12 miles of Siena. So the black cockerel is all about strength and having the biggest area.

About Susan Keevil

Susan Keevil is the Editorial Director of Académie du Vin Library, where she has played a pivotal role in establishing and nurturing this esteemed wine publishing house. A former editor of Decanter magazine, she has dedicated her career to the world of wine, from editorial leadership to in-depth exploration of the industry.

To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/328.

What is unique about Famille Perrin in France's approach to running their family wine business? How do traditional wine families differentiate their brands and market their wines in a crowded marketplace? How has the Gaja family of Italy made significant contributions to winemaking and the Piemonte community? What is unique about Famille Perrin in France's approach to running their family wine business?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Fiona Morrison.

You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks

Giveaway

Two of you are going to win a copy of her terrific book, 10 Great Wine Families: A Tour Through Europe. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at natalie@nataliemaclean.com and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose two people randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!

Highlights

How did the Frescobaldi family make a massive impact on the arts in their transition from banking to wine?

What were the Frescobaldi family's connections to famous figures like Dante Alighieri and Galileo?

How has Angelo Gaja and the Gaja family made significant contributions to winemaking and the Piemonte community?

Why is the Liger-Belair family’s vineyard often known as the greatest in the world?

What is unique about the Famille Perrin's approach to running their family wine business?

How has Álvaro Palacios proven Garnacha’s place as the climate change grape?

How do traditional wine families differentiate their brands and market their wines in a crowded marketplace?

Do these families view their wines as luxury goods?

Key Takeaways

How do traditional wine families differentiate their brands and market their wines in a crowded marketplace?

Simplicity and being true to their roots are two key factors Fiona points out. The labels have become much cleaner and are much more sober these days than they were in the past. The Torres family of Spain have done huge amounts on climate change and carbon neutrality and regeneration. In fact, they are, once again, this year, the most admired wine brand. I think it's very important to show that you're paying your dues and you're doing research. It shows how much they are rooted in their heritage and their history.

How has the Gaja family of Italy made significant contributions to winemaking and the Piemonte community?

If you want to go and taste a Gaja, you need to make a contribution of 300 euros to their various charities they support. Piemonte is still quite a poor region, and so they want to give back to the community and to the area what they can. Of course, people who drink Gaya wines, which are very expensive, can afford to give a charity donation. It's quite unusual, but I think it's a good solution for them.

What is unique about Famille Perrin in France's approach to running their family wine business?

There are seven or eight children from the two brothers, Francois and Jean Pierre. Every single one of them has a job in the winery, with each handling a different aspect of the business. This solidarity between so many children, working together, laughing together, tasting together. This is a blueprint for how to run a family business.

About Fiona Morrison MW

Fiona Morrison is an international Master of Wine, author, writer and wine merchant who lives in Belgium and Bordeaux and holds both British and Belgian nationalities. She became a Master of Wine in 1994 after studying in America and France. Fiona is married to Jacques Thienpont of Le Pin and currently runs the Thienpont family wine merchant business in Belgium and France. The family owns three estates on Bordeaux's right bank: Le Pin (Pomerol), L'IF (St Emilion) and L'Hêtre (Castillon). Winner of several awards for her writing, including the James Beard Award, her latest book, "10 Great Wine Families", has been published internationally.

To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/327.

Why is the Languedoc a hotbed of experimentation, and what does that mean for the wines you drink? What role have white and rosé wines played in the transformation of the Languedoc wine scene? What prompted the shift from mass-produced table wines to higher-quality appellation wines in Languedoc?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with author Rosemary George.

You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks

Giveaway

Two of you are going to win a copy of her terrific book, Wines of the Languedoc. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at natalie@nataliemaclean.com and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose two people randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!

Highlights

How did the Languedoc’s appellations come to be and why were they relatively late to the game?

Why is ​the Languedoc a hotbed of experimentation, and what does that mean for the wines you drink?

How did the monastic houses contribute to winemaking in the Languedoc region?

What is the historical significance of the Canal du Midi?

Which Languedoc food and wine pairings should you try?

What role have white and Rosé wines played in the transformation of the Languedoc wine scene?

What prompted the shift from mass-produced table wines to higher-quality appellation wines in Languedoc?

How has the introduction of clay amphorae and concrete eggs influenced Languedoc winemaking?

What changes does Rosemary expect to see in the region over the next 5-10 years?

How can you make the most out of a visit to the Languedoc region?

Which Languedoc wine would Rosemary pair with her favourite childhood food, baked beans?

Why would Rosemary love to be able to share a bottle of wine with author Jane Austen?

Key Takeaways

As Rosemary explains, the Languedoc has far fewer rules and higher yields than other appellations or regions in France. People who don't want to conform to the rules can try different grape varieties. They also have the broad designation of Vin de France that allows for just about anything you want to do. It's the reputation of your name that sells your wine. She believes that Vin de France in the Languedoc from a grove with a certain reputation is going to be interesting. You may not like it, but there will be a reason why it's not conforming, for whatever reason. So that's interesting.

Rosemary observes that the Languedoc produces twice as much Rosé as Provence. It's a large area, whereas Provence is quite small in comparison. Provence tends to produce very pale roses, and those specializing in rosé are quite special. White wines originally weren't important in the Languedoc, and the early appellations were red. But regions like Saint-Chinian and Faugères now produce white white wines in designated areas that weren’t recognized until 2004.

Rosemary believes that it was probably the falling consumption of wine in France that prompted higher quality wines. When France used to drink a phenomenal amount of wine per capita, wine was produced by cooperatives aiming at bulk production. However, growers leaving the cooperatives want to do something more individual. They recognized they had some really good vineyard land. Some of the pioneers of quality included Gerard Bertrand, who started aging wine in barrels. That sort of snowballed. Newcomers are attracted to the area because land prices are not that expensive so you can buy vineyards. You can't do that in Chablis.

About Rosemary George MW

Rosemary George has been in the wine industry for 52 years. She passed the prestigious Master of Wine exam in 1979, making her one of the first female MWs in the world. In 1981, she started writing about wine as a freelancer and has subsequently authored fourteen books, including those on New Zealand, Tuscany, Chablis, Faugeres, the Languedoc and Roussillon.

To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/325.

What makes the Languedoc particularly well-suited for organic viticulture? How have the wines of the Languedoc evolved since the 70s? How do the wines of the Languedoc region of southern France differ from neighbouring Roussillon?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Rosemary George

You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks

Giveaway

Two of you are going to win a copy of her terrific book, Wines of the Languedoc. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at natalie@nataliemaclean.com and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose two people randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!

Highlights

What was it like becoming one of the first women to earn the Master of Wine designation?

How did Rosemary’s journey into wine writing begin?

What inspired Rosemary's initial fascination with the Languedoc region?

What do you need to know about the Languedoc region in terms of geography and how it fits into the bigger picture of French wine?

Why is the Languedoc particularly well suited to organic viticulture?

How does Rosemary’s book, Wines of the Languedoc, compare to other books about the region?

What are the classic grape varieties and wines of the Languedoc?

How does the Garrigue influence Languedoc wines?

How does the Languedoc's maritime climate compare to other wine regions in France?

What are the key distinctions between the Languedoc and Roussillon regions?

Who are some of the more interesting winemakers that Rosemary has met in the Languedoc?

How are Languedoc winemakers responding to new challenges due to climate change?

Key Takeaways

As Rosemary notes, the Languedoc has a lot of advantages for organic viticulture, especially the winds. So if it rains, the winds dry everything up pretty quickly. Rot is not usually a problem in the Languedoc. She adds that vintages are becoming more irregular than they were, but certainly it's a lot easier to be organic in the Languedoc than it is in say Chablis.

In the Languedoc, for red wine, Rosemary says, you have Grenache, Mourvèdre, Syrah, Carignan and Cinsault. Syrah and Mourvèdre were grape varieties that were planted in the 70s, 80s. It’s what they called the cépages améliorateurs, the improving grape varieties. It was thought the Carignan needed to have something else added to it. Now, I think there's a trend. People realize how good Carignan is, especially with climate change coming into effect. It will make some really good wine. There's a bit of spice, bit of red fruit, there's a bit of freshness, there's some acidity and as well as tannin.

The Languedoc region of southern France and neighbouring Roussillon are completely different, Rosemary observes, because Roussillon was part of Spain until the Treaty of the Pyrenees. They see themselves as Northern Catalonia. The Pyrenees for Roussillon is a unifying thing, and it does not divide them from Spain, it unites them. Whereas Languedoc speaks Occitan, and it has a different history. And the wine makes them different because the key grape variety of Roussillon is Grenache, and that was also used for Vin Doux Naturel, fortified wines that like Banyuls and Maury and Rivesaltes. They're matured in barrel and last for for years. One of the great wines in the world and totally underappreciated. The Languedoc doesn't have that tradition to the same extent.

About Rosemary George MW

Rosemary George has been in the wine industry for 52 years. She passed the prestigious Master of Wine exam in 1979, making her one of the first female MWs in the world. In 1981, she started writing about wine as a freelancer and has subsequently authored fourteen books, including those on New Zealand, Tuscany, Chablis, Faugeres, the Languedoc and Roussillon.

To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/324.